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03-23-1992 1 1 2 3 4 CITY OF LAS CRUCES 5 6 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION 7 8 MEETING HELD ON MARCH 23 , 1992 9 10 7 : 00 p.m. 11 12 AT THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS 13 14 15 16 17 18 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Commissioner Eddie Perez , Chairman Commissioner Sharlyn Linard 19 Commissioner Kay Willis Commissioner Roger Lord 20 Commissioner Richard Killian Commissioner Pablo Montoya 21 STAFF PRESENT: David Weir 22 Mark Simms 23 24 25 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 2 1 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : This meeting will be 2 conducted following Robert' s Rules of Order . If any member 3 of the public has a comment or question that he or she 4 wishes to address to the Commission, he will be recognized 5 by the Chair . And then they will state their names so it 6 can be entered into the permanent record of these 7 proceedings . 8 Each person will be recognized once on each case issue 9 for a time period not to exceed ten minutes. If after 10 everyone else has spoken, someone has some new or additional 11 information then that individual will be given one 12 additional minute to speak after all citizens who wish to 13 speak on the case have been recognized. 14 When a large number of citizens wish to discuss the 15 case as a neighborhood group, then 15 minutes will be 16 allowed for a group spokesperson, if one has been selected 17 by the neighborhood group as their representative . If this 18 spokesperson is elected, then all other citizens wanting to 19 speak on that case will be given one additional minute . 20 The Planning and Zoning Commission is meeting tonight 21 to have a public hearing on one subdivision and one planned 22 unit development and to make recommendations to the City 23 Council to either approve or deny the request for zone 24 changes, annexations or amendments to the zoning code . The 25 City Council will make the final decision on these requests PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 3 1 at its meeting. 2 The Planning and Zoning Commission will be granted 3 final approval for denial on requests for all special use 4 permits, subdivisions, and planned unit developments at 5 tonight' s meeting. Any person adversely affected by the 6 decisions of this Commission may file a written appeal 7 stating the grounds for his appeal to the City Council 8 within 15 days of this meeting. 9 The City of Las Cruces will make every effort to 10 provide reasonable accommodation for people with 11 disabilities who wish to attend a public meeting. Please 12 notify the City at least 24 hours before the meeting. 13 Telephone number 526-0000 , or TDD number 526-1222 . 14 The first item on the agenda is approval of the minutes 15 for the meeting of October 27 , 1992 . May I have a motion to 16 approve the minutes of October 27 , 1992? 17 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Second. 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any additions or deletions 20 or corrections to the minutes of October 27th, 1992? 21 If there are not, we will just go ahead and vote on 22 them as a group. All in favor, aye . 23 All opposed same sign. 24 (The motion carried unanimously. ) 25 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : The next item on the agenda PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 4 1 is the approval of the minutes for the meeting of November 2 24th, 1992 . 3 May I have a motion to approve the minutes for the 4 meeting of November 24th, 1992? 5 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: So moved. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Second. 7 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any additions, deletions or 8 corrections to the minutes of the meeting of November 24th,. 9 1992? 10 We will vote as a group. All in favor, aye . All 11 opposed. 12 (The motion carried unanimously. ) 13 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Those items on the agenda 14 that are marked with an asterisk are on the consent agenda 15 and will be voted on by one motion. And I don' t see any 16 items so marked, so we will go on to old business . 17 Our first case 5-93-004 , a request for master plan and 18 preliminary plat approval of Desert Greens Subdivision. The 19 property is located on the north side of University Avenue 20 approximately 0 . 5 miles east of the intersection of Telshor 21 Boulevard. The proposal contains 19 . 37 acres and 62 parcels 22 of real property. Zoned R-1 . Submitted by Ronald E. 23 McGinnis. 24 That item was proposed on September 22nd, ' 93 . May I 25 have a motion to remove for consideration, case S-93-004? PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 5 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER LORD: Second. 3 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Is the applicant present? 4 Would you wish to make a presentation at this time? 5 Please state your name . 6 MR. MCGINNIS: My name is Ronald McGinnis . 7 We have 19 . 37 acres of undeveloped land on University that 8 we would like to have zoned R-1 accepted into the City so 9 that we can build a residential subdivision there . 10 The plan is to ultimately provide a first class 11 subdivision that' s similar in style to adjacent subdivision 12 houses, single family, and we would request that you 13 favorably approve this application. 14 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. Staff? 15 MR. WEIR: Mr . Chairman, Commission Members, 16 the case before you is a request for master plan and 17 preliminary plat approval of Desert Green Subdivision. The 18 proposed subdivision will be developed in three phases- for a 19 total of 62 lots . The applicants have met the submittal 20 requirements for this subdivision. The submittal meets the 21 requirements of the subdivision code . It conforms to the 22 R-1 zoning which the applicants have requested in this case . 23 The design standards by the City of Las Cruces are also 24 in conformance for this subdivision. With a preliminary 25 plat, they are required to submit a master drainage study. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 6 1 This has been done . Staff has reviewed this and found it to 2 be in conformance with both the subdivision code and the 3 City of Las Cruces design standards . 4 While reviewing this subdivision, there were 5 requirements for two waivers to the subdivision code . The 6 first was, Dripping Springs Road is classified as an 7 arterial street by the major thoroughfare plan and would 8 require a right-of-way of 130 feet. Due to the existence of 9 the Tortugas Dam south of this development, south of 10 Dripping Springs Road, there will be no future development 11 or no access at all off of that property. And staff has 12 negotiated with the applicants and agreed upon 100 feet of 13 right-of-way for this section of road to pass this 14 subdivision. 15 And also, the existing street does not meet the radius 16 for the street design of the design standard. Both of these 17 items were reviewed by the Development Review Committee and 18 the committee recommended approval of both of these waivers. 19 In your packet, you received two letters from the 20 public . And they stated, basically, four concerns . One was 21 a concern over drainage in this area. And they wanted 22 assurances that the drainage would not impact the existing 23 development to the east of the proposed subdivision. 24 Another letter you received expressed concerns that the 25 development has the possibility of blocking their views . PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 7 1 And they were also informed when they purchased their 2 property that this land would never be developed. They 3 stated they don' t feel the R-1 zoning is appropriate for 4 this parcel of land. And they also wanted you to know that 5 they made a considerable investment in their property, and 6 they would like that taken into consideration. 7 Staff recommends approval of both the master plan and 8 preliminary plat. It conforms with all codes and 9 regulations . 10 We also recommend granting the two waivers that I have 11 already stated, and that you condition approval on this 12 property - - it' s currently in the annexation process, which 13 is scheduled to be heard by the City Council on April 5th, 14 so we would like you to make that a condition of approval, 15 that the annexation be approved 16 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you, Mr . Weir . 17 At this point in time, we will open it to public 18 participation. Does anyone in the audience wish to address 19 case 5-93-004? 20 Please state your name . 21 MR. MALIN: My name is Wes Malin. I live in 22 the Greens . I have been there four years, and I represent 23 the Greens' Homeowners Association. At least those people 24 who are concerned about the drainage problem. 25 I think the last plot plan which has been submitted PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 8 1 significantly reduces our concern. But until we have had a 2 good rain and we see how it works, I think some of our 3 concerns still remain. 4 Let me tell you what they are based on. I was here two 5 years ago August, which was the only time we have had a 6 decent rain since I have been here. We had a couple of 7 inches in about a ten-hour period. And that storm water 8 came down along Desert Hills, which is just above us, and 9 along the Greens and in through the drainage ditch that 10 exists there. All of the houses that back up to this new 11 development had water damage during that rain. 12 I think that was in part because somebody allowed the 13 fence, the stone-wall fence backing up to that to be built 14 and didn' t back fill it. So there was about a four-foot 15 ditch along the fence which the flow down from Pomona filled 16 up and kept filled up for several hours . And the stone 17 walls leak a bit at this side . One of the people up there 18 said I could have taken a shower anywhere along that wall 19 and the back yards and front yards both had damage . 20 And down in the Greens, there was a similar sort of 21 thing, but there were fewer houses built at that time . Most 22 of us were up the hill from where the water came across . 23 The water that came from the drainage pipe flooded out into 24 the flat area around the fountain. If you familiar with the 25 Greens , there is a fountain at the entrance which is PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 9 1 relatively flat right where the drainage ditch goes . There, 2 the water piles up there at the base it slims it down to go 3 on both sides of the fence, down toward the apartments, and 4 it washed substantial soil out on both sides, undercut the 5 foundation of the fences, and so forth. 6 So we have seen what a relatively small rain can do. 7 And as we understand it, that was supposed to be fixed or 8 ameliorated by putting a block at the end of Pomona and a 9 curb. And the developer has agreed to put a fence there to 10 stop the flow down Pomona. 11 The other thing that has happened to us since then is 12 the county decided to help us out and pave that road instead 13 of the allowing the gravel trucks to go bouncing over the 14 cobbles . The Dripping Springs Road was a channel . It was 15 low before they paved it. They built it up from about two 16 or three feet up to about six feet at the higher end. So 17 they have in effect built a damn to make sure that all the 18 water that comes down the hill gets funneled into the 19 Greens. And it hasn't rained since they built that, so we 20 don' t know how bad our situation is . 21 The reason for our concern is to make sure that we 22 don' t add to an already bad problem. And I guess from what 23 we know of the most recent - - from what the engineering 24 calculations say, they are going to take the water coming 25 down Salinas and funnel it across through a 36-inch pipe to PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 10 1 get it behind the dam, and funnel the rest of the leftover 2 water that they don' t catch out on Dripping Springs and 3 University. So if their calculations are right and that 4 works, that should take care of the water . 5 But one of the things that we observed is the people 6 who built the apartments, which is where the flow down Buena 7 Vida Circle and the ditch across the park is going, it flows 8 into their parking lot down to the bottom where they have a 9 30-foot barrier which slopes into a catch basin, which is 10 about four feet by six feet by ten feet. And they have a 11 60-inch pipe going out of the apartments in the area. 12 Desert Hills and above doesn' t look to us too much different 13 than the new development, plus Salinas and what-not above . 14 So one of the questions we have is, if it takes a 15 60-inch pipe to protect the apartments, do the engineers 16 really know what they are talking about when they say a 17 36-inch pipe is going to take care of the flow in the new 18 development? I guess we will just have to wait and see what 19 happens . But we still have some concerns, even though I 20 think the developer has made some changes to try to reduce 21 the flow as much as he can, given all the restrictions that 22 apply. 23 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. 24 Anybody else in the audience wish to address case 25 5-93-004? PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 11 1 MR. WHEELER: My name is Eldon Wheeler, and I 2 live at 2467 Eldorado in the Greens . If I may, may I turn 3 on the overhead. 4 Okay, my lot doesn' t show on this slide , but my home is 5 right down here in this area below where the water that is 6 proposed to be channeled on out into Buena Vida We haven' t 7 been here very long. We just moved here last fall , and we 8 are concerned about the water flowing down that street and 9 where it will be disposed of. We are familiar with the 10 rains in New Mexico, and they can be quite devastating. So 11 I just want to let you know that we are concerned about 12 that. 13 Thank you very much. 14 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. Anybody else in 15 the audience wish to address case 5-93-004? 16 Mr. Chairman, I am the city engineer, and I 17 would like to offer myself to address the drainage issue , if 18 the Commission would like to hear it, but only if - - 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : I think you will probably 20 have the opportunity in commissioner input. Then the 21 Commission will probably have some questions for you. 22 MR. TRUJILLO: Yes, my name is Arthur 23 Trujillo, and I live at 2420 Eldorado Court in the Greens. 24 I also would like to share my concerns about the drainage in 25 that area. And I concur with Wes Malin about the problems PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 12 1 that we have had back in August of ' 91 . 2 The other concern that I have that I am not sure if 3 it' s been brought up before is : during the development of 4 this--maybe the developers can answer this question--during 5 the development of this property, what precautions , if any, 6 are going to be taken for drainage while it' s in 7 development, because not all the houses are going to go up 8 there at one time, and that area is going to be level to 9 some degree. What precautions, if any, are going to be 10 carried out during the development so flooding does not 11 occur? Will they have drainage already set inside in that 12 area during development. 13 That' s one of my concerns . And maybe the developer 14 could clarify. And also one more question for the 15 developer, what type of - - I noticed on this overhead you 16 have three different phases . If they could explain a little 17 bit on what that is . 18 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. Anybody else in 19 the audience wish to address case 5-93-004? 20 Once, twice, okay we will close it to public 21 participation and go into commissioner input. 22 Commissioners, any questions or comments? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Mr . Chairman, I would 24 like to hear from both the City Hydraulic Engineer and from 25 Mr . Underwood on the drainage issue . PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 13 1 Why don' t we go with Mr . Underwood first? 2 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Would you like to direct 3 some questions? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : I would just like to 5 hear his discussion and then see if there are any questions . 6 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Please state your name for 7 the record. 8 MR. UNDERWOOD: My name is Larry Underwood. 9 I am with Underwood Engineering, the engineer for this 10 project. 11 You asked a very good question, and I would like to 12 address that, something regarding the phases . There are 13 three phases proposed. We have shown here - - let' s see, 14 Phase I is right here . And Phase II is right here . 15 Phase I is an area right here . Phase II is this area 16 just to the west of it. And then the third phase is the , 17 area to the very south. 18 When I started looking at the drainage for this area, 19 it' s a little bit scary to stand at the edge of Salinas 20 Drive and look south. The erosion from the drainage that' s 21 existing at the end of Salinas is probably 15 or 20 feet 22 deep, and I don' t know, maybe 10 or 12 feet wide. In some 23 places, it' s a lot wider . And there is just a lot of water 24 coming down real turbulently and high velocity in this area 25 of the subdivision. And for that reason we considered that PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 14 1 the biggest problem in this subdivision is the drainage that 2 comes onto the area from already developed land. 3 So I recommended and the developers approved it, that 4 we select this area as our first phase, so that we could 5 address that drainage early, as the first thing that we did. 6 After working with Elephant Butte Irrigation District and 7 the City, we have a plan now. As we have submitted and the 8 City has approved, the drainage report picks up this water 9 that' s about 45 cubic feet per second coming off of Salinas 10 and will bring it down the street. And approximately right 11 at this point, we will take the water out of the street in 12 some specially designed drainlets, and we will carry the 13 water to the east edge of the subdivision. And Elephant 14 Butte Irrigation District has committed to us by letter that 15 they will work with the county, and they will contribute 16 themselves in getting the water to be piped under this 17 University Drive or Dripping Springs Road, so it will wind 18 up above the dam. 19 So up until the point at which anything is done , this 20 extra volume of water that was coming onto the subdivision 21 down Salinas road was draining to the southwest and a lot of 22 it was going into the Greens area by way of an exiting 23 channel . So we are taking approximately 75 percent of that 24. volume that used to go into the Greens and through the 25 Greens, we are taking that, intercepting it and putting it PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 15 1 above the dam, which is where it belongs , more than 2 where - - we agree that it would not be easy to handle as it 3 goes through the Greens , and it may even cause some 4 problems . But we are improving that. So that' s the reason 5 we have selected Phase I to be the first part of our 6 project. 7 The rest of the water that falls inside the subdivision 8 in Phase II and just a small part in Phase III , we will 9 continue to direct it through an existing channel that goes 10 through the Greens . We looked at the original drainage 11 report that the engineer did when the Greens was built. And 12 it shows approximately 50 cubic feet per second going 13 through an exiting walled channel there . And according to 14 the arithmetic, the drainage report that we have prepared 15 and the City has approved, we show approximately 13 to 15 16 cubic feet per second going through this area now. So we 17 feel like we have improved the situation. There will be 18 some water that we don' t see how we can prevent it from 19 going through the existing channel , but we have taken the 20 lion' s share out, so we don' t anticipate a problem with 21 that. 22 Is there any question? 23 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Having looked at the 24 site and the drainage channel that goes between the two 25 walls down by lots in the Greens--I can' t read it PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 16 1 anyway--the one you said it doesn' t appear to be much water 2 going through it. 3 MR. UNDERWOOD: Yes . 4 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Just beyond that on 5 the undeveloped side, there is a dirt dam that' s been built. 6 That was done to get the water out of that channel . 7 I am curious if that has worked, because I see no dirt 8 in that channel . There has been no dirt that' s washed in 9 there , so obviously the little dam worked. Where does that 10 water--and we will get to this--if the water can be directed 11 down, which it is obviously now being done, down to Dripping 12 Springs Road, why cannot we do that? What prevents us from 13 running it down Dripping Springs Road and down a gutter or 14 something along Dripping Springs, because it continues to 15 slope south and west, does it not? 16 MR. UNDERWOOD: Yes , it does . 17 COMMI.SSIONER KILLIAN: I am curious why it 18 has to go through the Greens at all, that' s my question. 19 MR. UNDERWOOD: It has been asked, and I have 20 answered the question, why not. As the water comes down 21 this road, why not enter University Drive at this point? 22 The reason for that is that the elevation of this 23 proposed cul-de-sac is lower than University Drive or 24 Dripping Springs Road at that point, so we can' t make the 25 water run uphill , right? PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 17 1 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Why does it have to be 2 lower? 3 MR. UNDERWOOD: It has to do with these two 4 lots--lots one and lot two . We cannot build these lots very 5 high because of the adjoining elevation of the lots across 6 from the Greens . We don' t want to place a lot of fill here 7 and have these yards - - the difference from yard one and 8 yard two to be real high. 9 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: You would be raising 10 that residence up and blocking more view? 11 MR. UNDERWOOD: Yeah, block more of their 12 view. And we feel it' s unsafe to have such a large, high 13 fence as would be required, adjoining that existing 14 development in the Greens . 15 The City, in response to putting water on the Dripping 16 Springs Road or University Drive, has said that they will 17 allow it, provided that we can show - - provided that we can 18 show that there is capacity in the street to handle 19 additional drainage, this extra 13 or 15 cubic feet per 20 second. The City, when I talked to them about that, they 21 discouraged me very much about putting water on to 22 University. In fact, they told me, no. 23 I only have it secondhand from Wes that they will 24 consider - - or that they will give it another thought.. And 25 if I went back there tomorrow, I would expect the City to PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 18 1 first tell me, no, we really don' t know. And they would 2 like a real strong reason why we need to put water on to 3 University Drive . The City has asked me to keep it in this 4 channel here, so that' s what we have done . 5 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: To continue on with 6 that, lots one an two, you said, you want to keep those low 7 to adjoin adjacent lots, but yet the cul-de-sac is lower 8 than Dripping Springs . Does that mean those lots one and 9 two are going to be lower than Dripping Springs? 10 MR. UNDERWOOD: Portions of them, yes . 11 Dripping Springs is a sloping road in this area. The road 12 is higher than this edge of the lot. But as Dripping 13 Springs Road drops down, then this end of the lot - - this 14 is a long lot, perhaps a couple of hundred feet long and 15 maybe more as you get to this end of the lot. The lot is 16 higher than Dripping Springs Road. So the property is - - 17 the lot is pretty much level , but Dripping Springs Road 18 slopes . Does that answer your question? 19 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: I think it does . 20 Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any other comments? 22 Anybody else wish to address case 5-93-004 from the 23 Commissioners. 24 COMMISSIONER LORD: The rain that occurred in 25 August of 191 , does anybody have an estimate how many cubic PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 19 1 feet per second of water ran through there with a two-inch 2 rain. 3 MR. CHURCH: My name is Dave Church I am 4 with the Engineering Department for the City. I don' t know, 5 but a two-inch rain comes out to something like 40 CFS if 6 all that water would have been running through that way. 7 The person who lives across right here , this gentleman 8 here - - the curb is here . There is a long parkway here . 9 If the water gets too big over his curb, once it gets behind 10 the curb, it' s done . It' s inside of the curb, and there is 11 a lot of problem with washout . 12 Really, it looks like their plan will help the 13 situation. There is still some negotiation before we get to 14 the final design plat approval . This is a preliminary plat. 15 They changed one situation here, put the water here . 16 But as Larry says they can' t change this grade here , 17 because it' s all been paved by the county. It would take a 18 major expenditure to lower that road. It was just paved a 19 few years ago, so it' s not time to redo that grade . 20 Putting a channel here to this location, we can' t 21 recommend it, because this here, this is a bad corner . This 22 is . You saw the variance for the curb. There is nothing 23 you can do unless you want to take off some other people ' s 24 lots . The road will probably go there . We are going to 25 have to start doing some vertical walls here, because you PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 20 1 are going up on the face of the dam. It will finally go on 2 that side, but introducing water on to the road, it' s going 3 to be a low corner, and you' re going to have splash here . 4 And, it' s a 35-mile-per-hour road where they are doing 50 . 5 And even on a bad day, they do 35 . And it' s a bad turn. 6 And it will make a poor driving situation right there . It' s 7 a bad corner, and that' s one reason we don' t want it out 8 there, right there . 9 Another thing that will happen, if the water gets to 10 University, we might wind up with it on the interchange . 11 It' s going to get on to the interchange. 12 Anyway, there are all sorts of alternatives that we are 13 currently exploring. And from what we can determine, they 14 are meeting the letter of the law with what they are doing. 15 COMMISSIONER LORD: Just to summarize then, 16 the way it sounds to me , is they have got the potential for 17 40 or 50 CFS, and they have experienced 35 or 40 . And you 18 are telling us that they have it down to a maximum of 10 to 19 20 with the new development; is that correct. Is that what 20 you are saying? 21 MR. CHURCH: Well, there are two things 22 happening. See on Pomona right here, that drainage is 23 small , but it' s getting cut off and added to the flow on 24 this street when it comes down and comes out Buena Vida 25 Channel . But that' s a very small area it gets in there , and PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 21 1 it' s a steady flow. It comes in there and that would cause 2 the problem right here . When they did the dirt here that 3 didn' t get finished right, and that may be one thing the 4 City has to address . 5 COMMISSIONER LORD: How do you mitigate the 6 storm water problem when you are under construction? 7 MR. CHURCH: Well , you can' t let sediment off 8 the site right now, but our regulations aren' t very strong 9 on that. That' s part of the water runoff. 10 I mean we are working with the engineer on this, what 11 the size of that pipe is . It' s showing as 36 at this time . 12 We also need to get that under the road, and that' s city 13 infrastructure funds going into this. But it' s county right 14 now, so it' s in the county. And we are going from the city 15 to the county boundary right there . And they are talking 16 about this runoff, which - - I mean when they built this 17 road, even when it was a dirt road, we didn' t wash that road 18 out very often. I didn' t notice this washout. You have to 19 understand, this flow was headed in this direction. That 20 may have been half the problem, because it was graded poorly 21 with respect to building houses in this area. So it really 22 looks likes they are trying to make improvements . It looks 23 likes an improvement. So we are going to let you know how 24 things look at the final plat approval . We are discussing 25 the situation and getting all the calculations to be PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 22 1 satisfied. 2 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. Okay, there was 3 a gentleman that wanted to speak . 4 MR. MALIN: I was going to comment - - 5 somebody asked about the dirt dam that' s outside the 6 entrance into the Greens, a few feet back from the start of 7 the drain. I am not sure who put that there . It appeared 8 at the time Dripping Springs Road was being installed, which 9 happened to be the same time that our developer was 10 backfilling along the Greens wall to try to reduce the 11 problem we had had a few months earlier . So whether the 12 fellow who was running the buldozer backfilling the wall 13 left that there, or whether the people who were screwing 14 around with Dripping Springs Road left it there , I don' t 15 know. But we haven' t had more than a tenth of an inch at a 16 time since that earthen dam was put there , so there is not 17 much sand in the drainage ditch. And my personal forecast 18 is that that would last about 20 minutes if we had a good 19 rain. A little pile of dirt isn' t going to stop the water. 20 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you. Any other 21 questions or comments regarding case 5-93-004? 22 Commissioners any questions? 23 COMMISSIONER LORD: For Dave Weir . We can 24 approve this, but the drainage and the fact that they have 25 got to get that under the Dripping Springs Road still lies PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 23 1 ahead as a task that needs to be done, correct? 2 MR. WEIR: Commissioner Lord, that is 3 correct. It is a project that will be out of the purview of 4 the Planning and Zoning Commission. It will be as David 5 Church alluded to, it will be a project that will be 6 coordinated between the three governmental entities--the 7 City of Las Cruces , Dona Ana County and Elephant Butte 8 Irrigation District as to the funding and the construction 9 of that, getting that corrected. So that is something that 10 will have to be done by all of those entities . 11 COMMISSIONER LORD: I personally would not 12 like to get trapped into approving something and then have 13 that all fall through; and then have to redo everything. 14 That sounds kind of scary to me . 15 MR. WEIR: Again, Commissioner Lord, before 16 they can actually go out and develop this site and start 17 building homes , they still have other processes - - they 18 still have to come before the Planning and Zoning Commission 19 and get their final plat approval . And while they are doing 20 that, they also have to submit their construction drawings 21 and final drainage plan for the development of the parcels. 22 And both of those items would have to be approved, and then 23 steps taken to make public improvements on the project 24 before they could actually start constructing the project. 25 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any other comments or PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 24 1 questions on case 93-004? 2 If not, may I have a motion to approve, deny, or 3 postpone case 5-93-004? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIS: Mr.- Chairman, I move 5 that we approve this preliminary plat. 6 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Do we have a second? 7 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any discussion? 9 Okay, I ' ll take the vote . 10 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Aye . 11 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Aye . 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER LORD: Aye . 14 COMMISSIONER MONTOYA: Aye . 15 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : And the chair votes aye . 16 ( The motion passed unanimously 6 to 0 . ) 17 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Okay, the next case on the 18 agenda is case PS-93-01, a request for site plan approval of 19 Las Colinas Subdivision Phase Five, (Planning parcles 12 , 13 20 and part of Parcel 11 of Las Colinas Planned Unit 21 Development) . The site contains plus or minus 32 acres of 22 land. The proposed use is a maximum of 170 detached single 23 family and/or detached single family "0" lot line dwellings . 24 The property is generally located northwest of Sand Hill 25 Arroyo and west of the existing phases of Las Colinas PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 25 1 Subdivision. Submitted by Ken Thurston for Roger Cox 2 Western Development, the property owners . This case was 3 postponed on February 23 , 1993 . 4 May I have a motion to remove for consideration, case 5 PS-93-01 . 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : So moved. 7 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Second. 8 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Mr. Thurston, would you care 9 to make a presentation? 10 I am sorry but you are the last one again. 11 MR. THURSTON: I am not going to complain, 12 because it' s only eight o' clock . 13 I prepared two versions, one short and one long. So, 14 do you have a preference? 15 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : No, as long as as you make 16 your point. 17 MR. THURSTON: Mr . Chairman, staff and 18 Commissioners, I am Ken Thurston. I am the CEO for Roger 19 Cox Western Developers . I am here this evening to present 20 Las Colinas Phase V for your approval . And I am in hopes 21 that the necessary information has been given to you from 22 staff to review that submittal and vote favorably. And if I 23 could, I would like to have just a moment to give you a 24 brief review of the Las Colinas PUD in its entirety. 25 Las Colinas began in 1987 with the approval of Las PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 26 1 Colinas Phase I , which had 128 lots, which consisted of this 2 area right here . And then in 1988 , Roger Cox Western 3 Developers decided to go with the PUD document on the 4 remaining 203 acres . To date we have built out Phase I with 5 the exception of a few residential lots and three commercial 6 lots . And in Phase II and Phase III and Phase IV, they are 7 substantially built out. Phase IV which contains 76 lots, 8 consisted of this area right here . We have about 36 lots 9 remaining. Thus we have now completed pretty much the east 10 side of the Sand Hill Arroyo. 11 In December, we submitted building plans for the arroyo 12 crossing, thus allowing us to begin the western trek across 13 the arroyo for the remaining 140 acres . We are currently 14 waiting approval from the building permit department for the 15 arroyo crossing. And also, we are, even if we did have that 16 building permit, we couldn' t do anything for you for two 17 more weeks because of the Onate sewer line going up through 18 here . So I am not going to yell too bad at the building 19 department, because I would have to be yelling at utilities . 20 Then in December of last year, we submitted Las Colinas 21 Phase V for staff to review and ultimately coming before you 22 for approval . In that submittal between December and now, 23 several issues have surfaced. The main four were street 24 widths and the cul-de-sacs . And then number two, the 25 drainage issue . Number three , traffic access issue . And PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 27 1 four, the utilities issue . 2 And in an effort to help you understand the total 3 concept of these three issues , we have met on various 4 occasions now with the fire department, the police 5 department, the staff, and the city engineer to come up with 6 an agreement and a satisfactory agreement for both parties . 7 In meeting with the new police department and the new fire 8 department chiefs, or lieutenants , they felt that a 24-foot 9 wide street and a 28-foot wide street was not in compliance 10 with their understanding of the UFC and the NFPA, which is 11 the Uniform Fire Code , and the National Fire Protection 12 Agency. 13 After discussing the approval of the PUD and the 14 concept behind the streets, it was agreed that I would 15 compromise and go to a 30-foot wide street back-of-curb for 16 the neighborhood and the major local streets , thus 17 satisfying the police and the fire departments . 18 In regards to the master drainage study, I would again 19 state that we have met with the drainage department, Mr . 20 Rodriquez and Mr. Church and Mr. Pillar to discuss the 21 master drainage plan and, also, the Phase Five drainage 22 study. 23 In that meeting three , maybe four issues surfaced. 24 One was the drainage coming into the site from off site , 25 which is in this area right through here . Our first attempt PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 28 1 to deal with that was to basically create an inlet at the 2 property line and to take the 41 CFS from that point in a 3 pipe down through the platted subdivision to the Sand Hill 4 Arroyo. 5 In the meeting, Mr . Church indicated a concern that we 6 had created a drainage easement in the back yards of several 7 lots, which he felt would be an inconvenience to the City in 8 the future if the pipe filled up with silt or debris . In 9 talking to our engineer, we tend to agree and have now 10 looked at an alternative which we think we are in agreement 11 on, and that is to leave it an open channel , thus not 12 allowing the silt and the debris to accumulate . And it 13 would then be carried in the street. And based upon the 14 engineer' s preliminary review, the roadway would be able to 15 carry the water flow and meet the guidelines, you know, for 16 the water carrying capacity. 17 And the other item that basically came up was the 18 increased runoff of water from the developed conditions to 19 the non-developed conditions . In an effort, then, to meet 20 that concern, we agreed to provide detention ponds which 21 were stated in the master drainage . On your plan, you will 22 see just as we cross the Sand Hill Arroyo there is a shaded 23 area in there . And then, to take care of the increase , we 24 have agreed to go into the Sand Hill Arroyo and to put in 25 detention ponds in the necessary size to hold that amount of PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 29 1 water and then to enter into a maintenance agreement with 2 the City to take care of those detention ponds when they do 3 silt up, until such time as the City would become the owner 4 of the Sand Hill Arroyo. 5 Number three, the item was filling in certain areas 6 along the Sand Hill Arroyo where we have fingers that 7 protrude in and out, as it meanders in and out through the 8 arroyo--and that' s in the master study that was submitted 9 back in 1988--and served, also, as a boundary. In both IV-B 10 and also in a little bit of III , we didn' t have to but we 11 elected to straighten out the platting line , so we don' t 12 have lots that are curved in nature , and also assuring that 13 we are staying outside of the flow of the 100-year, and also 14 at a elevation that protects the homes . 15 As it relates to the traffic access situation, that 16 came up in the comments from staff. We again met with the 17 staff and also MPO to voice our concern of our intent to 18 keep Los Colinas ' roads and the traffic in compliance with 19 what our original traffic studies indicated that we were 20 asked to prepare back in 1988 . And in that meeting, we 21 discussed the access coming from Highway 70 out by the 22 animal shelter, which I think two months ago you passed on a 23 subdivision of 45 acres there . And gave a variance for him 24 not to have to improve that road until he actually comes in 25 with a plat. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 30 1 But it' s our hope that you remember in the platting of 2 that, that that access has been reserved there . There is a 3 66-foot right-of-way that we are basically required to use 4 to comply with our access request. And then also in the MPO 5 it' s discussed about having a traffic circulation to the 6 west. And I think in that same meeting, the developer to 7 our west, who got plat approval , stated in that meeting he 8 has proposed a 130 foot right-of-way for another road 9 similar to Los Alamedas Road. And the MPO and staff has 10 recommended that we have a road that will tie into that in 11 the future. And based on that and after talking to the 12 neighbor to the west, we found that there was an existing 13 right-of-way coming from the west. And we talked to him 14 about us tying in to that. And so on your plat you will see 15 a little dotted area up there where the 70-foot collector 16 which is intended to go out with the platting of Phase 17 Eleven. 18 In the comment about the sewer lines, in a meeting with 19 the utilities, I think we are all in agreement on the sewer 20 and water and gas and so forth, that this is adequate there . 21 And thanks to the City, we actually now have water pressure 22 in our subdivision as of, I think , last Thursday. They 23 turned on the new valve for Phase One , and we went from 24 about 27 pounds pressure to 67 pounds pressure . So we thank 25 the City for that. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 31 1 But there was one question that the utilities did bring 2 up, and that was the location of an existing sewer line . 3 Back when we did Phase Four , we had to run the sewer line 4 from point A up through here and come across because of the 5 elevation difference between here , and what we could serve 6 here . And we also put in a line here , thinking we could use 7 it for the development of Phase Five . We found that our 8 projection of absolute roads at that time was not absolute, 9 and so we have agreed to abandon that particular sewer line 10 and to create a new sewer line in the middle of the street 11 as per the City' s request. 12 And last, having met with the City staff and the 13 departments and trying to meet their requests and their 14 requirements, we are now asking your support, your vote in 15 the approval of Las Colinas Phase Five . 16 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you, Mr . Thurston. 17 Staff? 18 MR. WEIR: Mr . Chairman, Commission Members, 19 the case before you is a two-phased, 170-lot site plan which 20 would be the fifth phase in Las Colinas PUD. 21 The submittal that you have before you this evening 22 meets all the requirements for the zoning code for site 23 plan, and it' s in conformance with the approved concept plan 24 which was approved by the Planning and Zoning Commission in 25 the year 1987 . PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 32 1 In your packets , many of the comments that Ken just 2 addressed were made . I would just like to note that a lot 3 of times those comments in the individual departments are 4 comments after their first review. If you will look under 5 the zoning comments , you will notice that the majority, or 6 actually all of them have been resolved, as Ken noted. The 7 items that were identified have been resolved with the 8 utilities department. A compromise was reached on the 9 street in negotiation with the fire department to allow 10 pavement widths of 30 feet. 11 The drainage items have been addressed in your packet. 12 The engineering department would request that these 13 items be addressed at the construction drawing and final 14 plat stage for the subdivision. Today staff received a 15 letter from the applicant stating that all of these items 16 will be addressed at a point in time . 17 In your packets, you have one letter from the public . 18 And their concerns were alternative access . If you notice 19 on your site plan, there are two areas that additional 20 rights-of-way have been provided. One is to the west and to 21 the south of the development tying into that 66-foot 22 right-of-way the applicant has already discussed. And also, 23 the next phase to the north, the applicant will be provided 24 a collector status street which will permit access to this 25 point. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 33 1 Based on the time and effort that' s been put in this by 2 the applicant, and his thoroughness in addressing staff 3 comments, staff recommends approval of this final site plan. 4 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Thank you, Mr . Weir . 5 At this point we will open it to public participation. 6 Anybody in the audience wish to address case PS-93-01? 7 Going once , twice . We will close it to public participation 8 and go into Commissioner input. Commissioners, any comments 9 or questions? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : I have a question for 11 Mr . Weir . I wonder if you could, just so everybody 12 understands, explain how the original PUD works in the 13 process when you go from phase to phase, and all of the 14 original PUD documents, how they are reflected on here; how 15 they can be changed or not, because I know Mr . Thurston has 16 come before us in the past with interpretations and things 17 like that, and I would kind of like to know how we are 18 supposed to look at this from that point of view. 19 MR. WEIR: Commissioner Willis I will try to 20 do my best. And if I use terminology or don' t explain it 21 well , be sure and stop me . 22 Basically, a PUD is process that' s allowed through the 23 zoning code to allow developers to deviate from strict 24 development standards of the City, whether it be the zoning 25 code requirements as to lot sizes , setbacks, subdivision PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 34 1 requirements as far as access, or other items that are 2 addressed through the subdivision code or through the design 3 standards, as far as requirements of design standards , on 4 street paving widths, sidewalks, et cetera. It' s a method 5 or process to allow some flexiblity in development within 6 the City of Las Cruces . 7 Basically, the process is a three-staged approval 8 process . The first stage is there is a concept plan 9 approval . And basically that acts as a master plan. At 10 that stage, they identify the entire area that they are 11 going to develop. They identify the type of land uses that 12 they are going to use . They identify the areas of open 13 space that will be provided, and they establish density. 14 And they also address items such as traffic flow, traffic 15 engineering, and street design. 16 Once these items are identified, they then go into 17 their development standards . And in the case of Las 18 Colinas, they have set up a difference in the right-of-way 19 requirements and also the design standards as far as paving 20 widths, sidewalks. I believe those are the major two that 21 are addressed. These should be considered by the Commission 22 as the minimums required for the development of a particular 23 project. 24 Once the concept plan is approved, basically that gives 25 them a blueprint for development within that area that they PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 35 1 have defined. It provides what land uses will be permitted, 2 at what densities, and what variations from the strict 3 development of the project from the City requirements are . 4 Once they do this, the next step is a site plan 5 approval , which you have before you this evening. And 6 basically what they do is, they take one portion of that 7 entire master-planned area and say, I am now going to 8 approve this on my next stage of developing this particular 9 portion of land. And what you as a commission and what we 10 do as staff is, we go back to that blueprint or that concept 11 plan and review and make sure that all the items that were 12 approved for the entire project meet that requirement. 13 Basically, if the concept plan is approved as a density of 14 eight dwelling units per acre, when he comes in with a site 15 plan, we make sure that the site plan reflects that density, 16 and it' s not greater than that. Then, we also - - he also 17 sets the alignment of the streets and his rights-of-way, and 18 we again go and make sure that there is nothing that is 19 below the minimums that have been required through his 20 concept plan. 21 Once that' s been approved by the Commission, then it 22 goes to the actual platting of the subdivision, and they 23 will submit a final plat which is the legal instrument for 24 recording and selling the lots . And in conjunction with 25 that, they submit their construction drawings for public PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 36 1 improvements . And that is reviewed by staff. And once that 2 is approved, that is the standard by which all the 3 improvements will be built for the development. And that' s 4 a thumbnail sketch of the process . 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : So in working with a 6 PUD if in phase one and two, for example , we find that 7 something has been allowed in the past that isn' t working 8 real well , because it has been allowed in the initial phases 9 of a PUD, what is our obligation, if any, to continue to 10 allow that through the entire subdivision or development? 11 MR. WEIR: Well , Commissioner Willis, it 12 might be easier to answer that question by kind of turning 13 it around a little bit and say, what would the city be 14 required to do to establish greater restrictions on the 15 development than what was approved through the concept. 16 It would the responsibility of the City to show that 17 what was approved is not working and that that is only a 18 base line to go by. And if it can be demonstrated that it' s 19 not - - that a problem has been identified and needs 20 addressing, that those standards need to be increased. And 21 from that standpoint, we can request that the requirements 22 be changed. Like in this case , I guess the best example 23 would be the street. And again, using this as an example , 24 the fire department and the police department felt that 25 street widths which were permitted as a minimum were not PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 37 1 safe for the development. They had concerns about their 2 fire equipment being able to respond. The police department 3 was concerned about enforcement of some of the requirements 4 through the PUD. And they were able to go through their 5 national fire codes and what their requirements were and 6 say, we would like to have a little more paving width of 7 these streets so we can be sure that we can get our 8 equipment through the lots of your development. 9 And through several meetings, a compromise was reached 10 in which the minimum paving width of the streets within Las 11 Colinas were agreed upon by the developer and the fire 12 department. And in that sense they were widened. I hope 13 that answers your questions . 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : I think it does. Thank 15 you. 16 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any more comments or 17 questions regarding case PS-93-01? 18 Mr . Weir what' s the smallest PUD that' s allowed? 19 MR. WEIR: I don' t believe that the zoning 20 code places a minimum on a PUD. 21 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Whether it be - - 22 MR. WEIR: Whether it be residential , mixed 23 use or business. I can check for you real quick, but I am 24 not aware of any minimum size requirement. 25 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : I didn' t think there was . PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 38 1 Okay, any other comments or questions? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : I do have one more 3 comment. I hope that in the future we don' t see any more T 4 and Y cul-de-sacs . I don' t think that they are a good idea. 5 I think they are difficult for the residents . They are 6 difficult for the fire department, and I don' t picture them 7 being safe for kids or pedestrians . And I think that Mr . 8 Thurston probably has the right to continue to put them in 9 Las Colinas, but I hope this doesn' t come up again. That' s 10 all . 11 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any more comments or 12 questions? 13 If not may I have a motion to approve, deny or postpone 14 case PS-93-001? 15 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: I move that we 16 approved case PS-93-001 . 17 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Do I have a second? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Second. 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Okay, I will take a vote . 20 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: . Aye . 21 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Aye . 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIS: Yes . 23 COMMISSIONER LORD: Aye . 24 COMMISSIONER MONTOYA: Aye . 25 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : And the chair votes aye . PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 39 1 ( The motion carried unanimously 6 to 0 . ) 2 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Okay, we go on to our last 3 item under new business, case SU-93-04 , a request for a 4 special use permit for a child day care home in a private 5 residence for a maximum of 12 children and a time period of 6 99 years. The property is a lot containing 8367 .7 square 7 feet. Zoned R-1 and located at 2705 Claude Dove . Submitted 8 by the property owner Barbara Shupe . 9 There is a request to postpone to get it into proper 10 order. May I have a motion to postpone case SU-93-04? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIS: So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Second. 13 CHAIRMAN PEREZ At this point in time , the 14 applicant has requested a postponement. Mr . Weir, is that 15 correct? 16 MR. WEIR: Yes . 17 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : To a specific time or 18 indefinite? 19 MS. SCHUPE: There were some questions I had 20 that I hadn' t resolved, and I would like to get together 21 with David and I have never caught up with him. His 22 schedule and mine seem not to mix. I am going to, if I can, 23 be on the next month' s agenda, is what I would like to do. 24 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Okay, in that case, may I 25 have a motion to postpone case SU-93-004? PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 40 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER LORD: Second. 3 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Discussion? 4 Okay, let' s vote . 5 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: Aye . 6 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Aye . 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIS : Yes . 8 COMMISSIONER LORD: Aye . 9 COMMISSIONER MONTOYA: Aye . 10 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : And the chair votes aye . 11 (The motion carried unanimously 6 to 0 . ) 12 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : The motion passes to 13 postpone for the next meeting, the next public meeting. 14 At this point in time, we will go to other points of 15 business, of interest. Anybody have anything in mind they 16 want to discuss? 17 Commissioners or staff? 18 MR. WEIR: No. 19 COMMISSIONER LORD: Since it' s early, I have 20 a real problem with what we did last month on the 21 subdivision next to the old country club area. We were - - 22 I think we misled the public that night by letting them 23 think that we were going to be able to listen to all their 24 objections and actually act upon them. And there was 25 nothing we could do for the public that night the way it PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 41 1 turned out. We weren' t to consider all the things that were 2 brought before us . And I would like to be - - maybe I am 3 blaming myself as well , but I would like to be more prepared 4 next time and maybe tell them that we are going to listen to 5 them, but let them know that there is nothing we can do, so 6 there are no hard feelings, and they are not misled thinking 7 that we are listening. And we start answering questions and 8 asking questions . And I think they thought maybe they 9 pulled something off and were going to get something 10 stopped, and their hopes are built up and dashed. And I 11 think we did a disservice . I didn' t really understand the 12 ramifications, but I would like to be more prepared next 13 time . And maybe if staff can tell us before what we can and 14 can' t consider and make it real clear to the public and 15 everybody involved, we will listen but please understand 16 that we are not going to be able to act upon all of these . 17 You know, we will listen, of course , I am sure . But 18 does anybody have any agreement or disagreement? 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : I agree with you. That' s 20 why sometimes I tend to allow the discussion to go beyond 21 the realm of relevance to the case , simply because of the 22 fact that the public oftentimes is not quite versed on the 23 rules and regulations and different codes that apply to the 24 situation. And so we do need to try and give as much 25 information as we possibly can, and maybe it' s just a matter PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 42 1 of the Commission wishing to spend a little bit more time in 2 meting out this information to the public . Because in the 3 past we have allowed it to get to that point, but then we 4 wind up being here until two or three o' clock at night. 5 COMMISSIONER LORD: Maybe the public wouldn' t 6 have so much to say that we would be here until two or three 7 if they knew that we had already been through that two 8 months ago and that it was all done, and that the public had 9 their chance and it' s passed that stage; there is nothing we 10 can do on those items any longer . 11 MR. SIMMS : I would like to make a comment on 12 that. Part of the problem is Country Club Heights is 13 currently suing the City. And you will remember that the 14 persons that were in the audience were also the plaintiffs 15 that are suing the City. You' ll never be able to say 16 anything to make them happy unless you say we were 17 absolutely wrong, that the City was wrong, and that we are 18 reversing ourselves, or reversing the City Council . And you 19 don' t have that kind of authority. 20 In other words, there is nothing that you could have 21 said that would have made them happy. It wouldn' t be within 22 your power. I tried. And you remember the work session 23 that we went to, I got a letter from that - - from a Ms . 24 Harriman who was one of probably about eight plaintiffs . 25 Her letter generally said that I was arrogant and demeaning. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 43 1 And she wrote to the mayor and to the council members . They 2 all got copies of it. And then eventually I got a copy of 3 it . And they said don' t even bother to make a comment on 4 it, she' s a plaintiff. When I discovered she was a 5 plaintiff, I told her the rule of ethics prohibited me from 6 discussing the case with her . And then I went over to the 7 developers, and then discussed the case with them, because 8 we are codefendants, and we were discussing strategy 9 together. And her letter addressed - - said that I was - - 10 I refused to speak to her, but I was being friendly and not 11 being neutral in talking to the developers . And they don' t 12 understand. But I thought I explained it to her . I have to 13 speak to your attorney and not to you, because I know you 14 have a representative . She couldn' t understand that. 15 That' s the one that comes to mind. 16 COMMISSIONER LORD: But I know sitting in 17 this chair, that it' s happened in other cases where we have 18 gotten off on a tangent, that it wasn't an area that we were 19 even going to consider, and maybe we just live with that, I 20 don' t know. I am sure everybody says, well , Roger, you 21 should know the rules, this is your job, but I have a 22 full-time job that I don' t really have time to memorize the 23 rules, and I need to ask for more directions from the staff 24 before I go in as to what I am going to be able to pay 25 attention to and what I am not going to be paying attention PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 44 1 to. 2 MR. SIMMS : Not speaking for the staff, but 3 just from a legal point of view, if you have questions about 4 something beforehand, I on occasions get calls from the 5 commissioners , and you are free to call . I usually try to 6 answer as quickly as I can, depending on what I am doing. 7 But if you need that kind of information, you are certainly 8 welcome to try to contact me, and I will give you whatever I 9 can. It depends on how much notice you give me . 10 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : If there is a case that we 11 are going to hear and it' s built up with a lot of motion or 12 controversy, the - - would it be - - what would we have to 13 comply with as far as notice is concerned to be able to 14 discuss such situations, say, in a work session before the 15 public hearing? 16 MR. SIMMS : You really can' t. 17 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : You can' t do it, right? 18 MR. SIMMS: It' s a violation of the Open 19 Meetings Act. You are in a quorum, and you need to discuss 20 it at that time. 21 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Yeah, I see what you are 22 getting at. There is no way around it. It has to be 23 discussed at the time that we are hearing it. And hopefully 24 that we touch all the points of concern. 25 MR. SIMMS : Because if you started having PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23, 19993 MEETING 45 1 closed meetings, then they are going to assume that you are 2 talking about them, and they will asume that it' s bad 3 things. 4 So you might as well just go for it in your work 5 session. 6 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : But there wouldn' t be 7 anything to prohibit us from being able to contact 8 individually and discuss the issue, if it was a matter of 9 concern there, or is there? 10 MR. SIMMS : The Closed Meeting Act was done 11 by the Attorney General . They have a road show that 12 literally went from city to city. I attended the one that 13 was done here . Someone asked a question similar to that, 14 and the Attorney General ' s answer at that time was, if 15 anybody gets on the telephone and discusses it with anybody 16 else, that' s the same as a meeting, because you are 17 discussing it. And if it' s part of your policy-making, you 18 are eliminating things that you would have to discuss at a 19 later time . And they look at it as a open meetings 20 violation. Their problem is, how would they find out about 21 it? Someone would have to tell them, one of the members 22 participating in the discussion. 23 COMMISSIONER LORD: How about when there are 24 three or four of us in a car at a site meeting? 25 MR. SIMMS : There is only supposed to be PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 46 1 three, not a quorum. If they make it four, then I think 2 that' s a violation. 3 COMMISSIONER KILLIAN: What if four 4 commissioners happen to go to a party, and they are all 5 there together . 6 MS. SIMMS : Then they are open to an attack. 7 One of the grounds is if they are actively having a meeting 8 or discussing things . You can' t discuss city business . If 9 you' re driving in a car, as long as you don' t talk about 10 what you are going to do, you are fine . 11 COMMISSIONER LINARD: What if we just had a 12 work session one night and we advertised what we were going 13 to have, and we finished early and we discussed that 14 decision while we still had some time, and there wasn' t 15 anybody there . It' s fine as long as it' s on the agenda. 16 The agenda can be very broad. I think I saw one today. We 17 did a meeting at five o' clock, and that' s one of the things 18 we actually discussed. And it said "others matters, " which 19 is really broad. And it ended in a discussion situation, 20 and then you talk about those things . But we never know if 21 we have that kind of time . 22 COMMISSIONER LORD: Well , my conclusion 23 would ask, for my satisfaction, that when you are sitting 24 there, or Dave, or Bryan, or somebody is sitting there, and 25 we are way off base and the public is drawing us further off PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 47 1 base and we are getting out in left field, pop up and stop 2 us before two or three hours go by. 3 MR. SIMMS : I have two problems with that. 4 One is, when I do, it alerts people to lawsuit. So if I 5 know in advance that you are getting to that point, then I 6 can stop you before you actually do it. After you do it, 7 all I can do is damage control . And more likely than not, 8 I 'll alert the other person that something has gone wrong, 9 and now they have cause of action. And then I am stuck 10 saying, Should I keep my mouth shut, because who reads all 11 those millions of pages of minutes , and let it go. There 12 are a lot of things that happen there that it would surpise 13 you that leads possibly to liability. But nothing happens 14 with it, because the person has to make a complaint. We 15 have a lot of cases like that. 16 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : And David and Bryan are 17 pretty good about alerting me whenever we are starting to 18 get off base, and they tell me, You are getting off. That' s 19 when I try to steer the meeting in a different direction. 20 MR. SIMMS: Some of the things, like the 21 notice requirements, we usually know the issues way in 22 advance, so you can stop it, and you can also cure that by 23 simply doing it over again. So there are ways to fix 24 problems . Those are the easy ones . 25 It' s when, someone--not on this board but another PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 48 1 board--where a member stood up and said that legally there 2 is nothing we can do to enforce our rules . In other words, 3 make you obey. Let' s call it a sign code . They said, we 4 can' t enforce it. Great American Food and Beverage , their 5 sign was too high. He said, "Legally, we can' t make you 6 take it down. " And see, that' s not true. 7 One, he ' s not lawyer . So saying "legally, " he' s not 8 speaking from the position of an attorney, and he was wrong. 9 We can enforce all of these rules, legally. Anybody can go 10 to jail for 90 days and be fined $300 for violating the 11 Planning and Zoning Code . I don' t do it, because it just 12 doesn't seem to be the right solution, but they can. So 13 things like that, when they say statements like that and 14 other people listen to their erroneous statements, and that 15 statement is relied upon, then we can be held liable . They 16 can say, I relied upon a person in authority, and then we 17 start looking bad. So those kind of situations are not 18 good. 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Any other comments? 20 COMMISSIONER LINARD: I would ask like to ask 21 a question of David, but maybe someone else can answer. 22 When I went on my site visit last Friday, I thought houses 23 in Las Colinas were supposed to be far enough away from the 24 street that one could park a car without it hanging over the 25 sidewalk? PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 49 1 MR. WEIR: I am sorry, could you repeat, 2 Commissioner Linard? 3 COMMISSIONER LINARD: When I went on the site 4 visit - - maybe I ought to turn this on and you can hear me . 5 When I went on the site visit to Las Colinas , I saw a 6 car in a cul-de-sac--one of those that Kay was talking 7 about, the Y' s and T' s--the car was longer than the space 8 between the garage and the sidewalk, and it was hanging over 9 the sidewalk. 10 MR. WEIR: What the zoning code requires is 11 that there be two off-street parking spaces provided for 12 each lot. I don' t know - - was the garage a double garage , 13 double car garage? 14 COMMISSIONER LINARD: I believe it was, but 15 the garage doors were closed, and the car was sitting there 16 hanging over the sidewalk . 17 MR. WEIR: Typically, from a building permit 18 review, if they provided two parking spaces in the garage, 19 we consider them meeting the off-street parking requirements 20 of the code. In other words, the driveway doesn' t count if 21 you have a two-car garage. 22 COMMISSIONER LINARD: What about- people who 23 build a room in their garage, then? 24 MR. WEIR: That would be dealt with when they 25 came in for their addition permit. It would be the PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 50 1 responsibilities of staff to question that. 2 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Well , I actually .saw 3 one where they had enclosed their garage . 4 MR. SIMMS : You should have called codes . 5 COMMISSIONER LINARD: They don' t do anything. 6 I have had a discussion before with codes, and they know 7 they are using the garage as an attic, and they are not 8 parking there . And they do have to have off-street parking. 9 And when they are parking on the street instead - - 10 MR. SIMMS : If somebody made a complaint, 11 then we would follow through with it. And usually it comes 12 with a warning not to do it. 13 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Just to show you codes 14 doesn' t do anything, I supposedly live in an R-1 community. 15 The man next door has a cement block wall around his back 16 yard with a junkyard in there , and he has a for sale sign 17 right there in front, so when he wants to sell parts he puts 18 them up there, and they don' t do anything. 19 CHAIRMAN PEREZ : Okay, any public 20 participation? Commissioner comments? Staff comments? 21 May I have a motion for adjournment? 22 COMMISSIONER LORD: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER LINARD: Second. 24 (Motion carried unamiously 6 to 0 . ) 25 (Metting conluded at 8 :15 p.m. ) PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING 51 1 2 3 4 Eddie Perez, Chairman Roger Lord 5 6 A&t� r J 8 Sharlyn Linard Richard Killian 9 10 11 12 Pablo Montoya Kay illis 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 23 , 19993 MEETING