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06-24-2014 I PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION 2 FOR THE 3 CITY OF LAS CRUCES 4 City Council Chambers 5 June 24, 2014 at 6:00 p.m. 6 7 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: 8 Godfrey Crane, Chairman 9 William Stowe, Vice-Chair 10 Charles Beard, Secretary 11 Joanne Ferrary, Member 12 Kirk Clifton, Member 13 14 BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT: 15 Ruben Alvarado, Member 16 17 STAFF PRESENT: 18 Katherine Harrison- Rogers, Senior Planner, CLC 19 Adam Ochoa, Planner, CLC 20 Susana Montana, Planner, CLC 21 Ted Sweetser, CLC Fire Department 22 Robert Cabello, CLC Legal Staff 23 Shannon Martin, CLC Police 24 Becky Baum, Recording Secretary, RC Creations, LLC 25 26 1. CALL TO ORDER (6:00) 27 28 Crane: Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Planning and 29 Zoning Commission meeting for the 24th of June. We'll start as we 30 usually do by introducing the Commissioners present. My far right is 31 Commissioner Clifton, representing District 6, and to his left Commissioner 32 Stowe who represents District 1 and is also our Vice Chairman. And 33 Commissioner Ferrary for District 5. Commissioner Beard for District 2, 34 he's also our secretary. I'm Godfrey Crane, the Chairman, I represent 35 District 4. And we have at present no Mayor's appointee. 36 37 11. CONFLICT OF INTEREST 38 At the opening of each meeting, the chairperson shall ask if any member on the 39 Commission or City staff has any known conflict of interest with any item on the 40 agenda. 41 42 Crane: Now we ask if any Commissioner or anybody in Community Development 43 Department has a conflict in interest in regard to any item on tonight's 44 agenda? No one so indicates. So we will proceed. We have two items 45 on the consent agenda tonight 22873. You signaling me Mr. Ochoa? 46 1 I Ochoa: Yes sir, I believe we skipped the approval of the minutes. 2 3 III. APPROVAL OF MINUTES 4 1. May 27, 2014 - Regular Meeting 5 6 Crane: Oh I beg your pardon and it says right in front of me, approval of minutes. 7 We go onto the approval of the minutes for the last meeting, May 27th. 8 Commissioners does anyone have any points to make about last 9 meeting's minutes? Mr. Clifton you're reaching for your button but your 10 light is not on so that means you're satisfied? 11 12 Clifton: I'll make a motion to approve the minutes. 13 14 Crane: All right, that's accepted. And is there any second. 15 16 Stowe: Second. 17 18 Crane: Seconded by Mr. Stowe. All in favor aye. 19 20 ALL: Aye. 21 22 Crane: Against, nay. And any abstentions? Then the minutes are accepted by 23 vote of five for, zero against. Thank you. 24 25 IV. CONSENT AGENDA 26 27 1. Case Z2873: MOVED TO FIRST ITEM OF NEW BUSINESS 28 29 2. Case Z2874: Application of Laura Stull Kaczmarek & Nancy Abeyta on 30 behalf of Ann F. Stull, property owner, to rezone two lots encompassing 6.06 31 +/- acres from M-1/M-2 (Industrial Standard) to C-3 (Commercial High 32 Intensity), located on the southwest corner of Nevada Avenue and Triviz 33 Drive; 960 S. Triviz Drive; Parcel ID# 02-22084 and 02-31034. Proposed 34 Use: Storage unit facility and truck/trailer rentals; Council.District 3 (Pedroza) 35 36 Crane: The two items on the consent agenda are 22873 and 22874. These are 37 matters that the Community Development Department has judged are 38 probably noncontroversial and therefore they are put together in a group 39 called consent agenda. There is no debate on them and we vote on them 40 as one group, just up or down. However, if anybody on the Commission, 41 any Community Planning person, or anybody, maybe member of the 42 public wishes to discuss either of these matters or both, we will take them 43 off this agenda and put them onto the new business agenda. Does 44 anybody want to move it? 45 1 have a point to make about Z2873. We've received a letter from a 46 couple called Test, Donald and Diane who are adjacent property owners 2 I to this and they have some concerns. And so I'm going to pull this from 2 the consent agenda and put it as the first item on new business, over the 3 page if you have the agenda with you. Any objection to ... anybody want 4 to discuss 228747 Nobody so indicates, so that will be the consent 5 agenda item. May I hear a motion that the consent agenda Case Z2874 6 only be affirmed? 7 8 Stowe: So moved. 9 10 Crane: Moved by Mr. Stowe. 11 12 Beard: Second. 13 14 Crane: Seconded by Mr. Beard. All in favor aye. 15 16 ALL: Aye. 17 18 Crane: Any against? It passes five/zero. So Z2874 passes. 19 20 V. OLD BUSINESS - NONE 21 22 VI. NEW BUSINESS 23 24 Crane: We have a postponement Mr. Ochoa. 25 26 Ochoa: Yes, sir. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Under new business it is item number 27 two, case S-13-030W. It's a request for a waiver to road improvements for 28 a proposed subdivision known as Gamboa Acres Subdivision. The 29 property owner was unable to make tonight's meeting unfortunately and is 30 asking to be postponed date specific to the July 22nd Planning and Zoning 31 Commission Meeting. 32 33 Crane: Okay, July 22nd. All right. Thank you. Anything else before we get into 34 the new business Mr. Ochoa? No, okay. 35 36 Ochoa: No sir, that's it. 37 38 Crane: Tonight's meeting could be longer than usual. With that in mind, I am 39 thinking of taking a suggestion from Community Development and moving 40 case PA-14-01 which concerns the Arroyo Management Plan to the end of 41 the new business, but I don't want to do that if that's going to be more 42 disruptive than leaving it where it is. May I see a show of hands from the 43 public as to who has come with the objective of speaking to the Arroyo 44 Management Plan? Hands up. I see one, two, three people. Okay, so 1 45 take it that the rest of you are here for the other business. And since there 46 are only the three, we'll ask you to wait until the end of the business, the 3 I three other cases so we don't have to have the public sit through the 2 discussion of the Arroyo Management Plan which they're probably not 3 familiar with. Does any Commissioner have any objection to that? So 4 Case PA-14-01 goes to number five on the list. 5 6 1. Case PA-14-01: MOVED TO THE LAST ITEM OF NEW BUSINESS. 7 8 Case Z2873: Application of Kary Bulsterbaum on behalf of Shared Equity 9 Holdings, LLC, property owner, for a zone change from C-3C/R-4C 10 (Commercial High Intensity-Conditional/Multi-Dwelling High Density & II Limited Retail and Office-Conditional) to C-3C/R-4C in order to add 12 additional permitted uses to a 4.4 +/- acre lot located on the northwest corner 13 of Mars Avenue and Del Rey Boulevard; ParcelID# 02-03267;. Proposed 14 Use: Multi-dwelling high density uses and limited office and commercial 15 uses: Council District 5 (Sorg) 16 17 Crane: We'll now discuss Case 22873 in the normal way. The way we do this is 18 that first of all Mr. Ochoa tonight will give a presentation on this and then 19 Commissioners may have questions of him. Then we ask the applicant, if 20 present, to come up and tell us about the application, and we may ask the 21 applicant questions. And finally we invite members of the public to come 22 up and speak to the matter. Typically we don't time people's 23 presentations unless there are quite a lot of people, in which case we'll 24 specifically limit you to three minutes, but 1 suspect there aren't too many 25 people interested in this particular case. After all the members of the 26 public have spoken, we close the matter to discussion and the 27 Commissioners will discuss it among themselves and then vote. So, Mr. 28 Ochoa shall one of us put into the record this comment on the, from 29 Donald and Diane Test or are they present? Yes, Ms. Montana? 30 31 Montana: The oath. We have to give the oath. 32 33 Crane: Oh yes. To Mr. Ochoa. I beg your pardon. Mr. Ochoa do you swear or 34 affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth and nothing but 35 the truth under penalty of law? 36 37 Ochoa: I do sir. 38 39 Crane: Thank you. 40 41 Ochoa: For your question about the public ... the letter we got from the public 42 there sir. What we can do, I can do a quick presentation, kind of touch 43 base on it and then if you like you could read it into the minutes if you like 44 sir or I could read it into the minutes. It's definitely up to you sir. Or if you 45 could just ... 46 4 I Crane: I think rather than read the whole thing as you mentioned to me before the 2 meeting that almost all of their objections are in fact already taken care of 3 and there was only one that was not, so we could perhaps confine 4 ourselves to that. 5 6 Ochoa: We could definitely do that Mr. Chairman. The members from the public 7 essentially had no issues with the proposed potential Veteran's Affairs 8 Medical facility on the property, but are adjacent property owners of 9 residential lots and essentially were asking for a couple of requirements or 10 conditions to be placed on the proposed zone change. The first thing 11 being ... asking the Planning and Zoning Commission to require the 12 facility to be limited to a single story and to include sufficient setbacks to 13 the existing residential homes on the adjacent residential lots. And 14 additionally they also requested to require the applicant to provide a sound 15 wall and mature trees along the adjacent residentially zoned properties to 16 the west to assure some type of I guess buffer if you will between the 17 subject property and, excuse me, the residential lots. Now those ... the 18 first condition that they're asking for, that's something that they're asking 19 for that's outside of the bounds of the zoning code of course, but the 20 second item about sound wall/landscape area, that is already kind of a 21 requirement required by code. If this property gets developed for a 22 nonresidential use, commercial, or the VA facility, they are required to 23 provide a buffer yard adjacent to that residentially zoned property, 24 anywhere from a 15-foot semi-opaque buffer yard or a 10-foot opaque 25 buffer yard which is anywhere between about a six-foot tall opaque wall 26 and then landscaping behind it or a four-foot tall landscape ... opaque wall 27 with landscaping behind it. So, that is kind of taken into effect and the 28 setbacks are required to be met there as well with that. 29 30 Crane: So the sound wall and mature trees requirement is there already, they will 31 have to do that. The single story cannot be required, or could we require 32 it? 33 34 Ochoa: That's something that the Planning and Zoning Commission may require 35 or ask the property owner, the applicant, to possibly take into 36 consideration. It's definitely up to you sir. 37 38 Crane: And includes sufficient setbacks to the existing residential homes and lots. 39 Sufficient is not specified here. 40 41 Ochoa: No sir. 42 43 Crane: Is there any elbowroom to change that? Ms. Harrison-Rogers, your light's 44 on. 45 5 I H-Rogers: Yes sir. Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, I was just ... I was going 2 to wait until you were done with your statement, but did want to specify 3 just for reference the height limits in terms of what's allowed in various 4 zones so that you had a reference point for that since they were asking for 5 a single story, I was just going to point that out for you. For the type of 6 zoning that's being requested, it's 60-feet, however for residential, typical 7 single-family residual it's 35-feet as a maximum height. 8 9 Crane: Okay. Thank you. 10 11 Ochoa: And, sorry sir, to answer your question about the setbacks, since that 12 buffer yard is required they cannot build within that buffer yard area. They 13 can't even put parking in that buffer yard area. It has to be actual 14 dedicated kind of left alone space if you will between the property line and 15 where they can commence to start developing of the building or parking 16 area for the facility sir. 17 18 Crane: Okay. Is there any representative of Mr. and Mrs. Test present? All right, 19 nobody indicates they're a representative. 20 21 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman. I also just wanted to add, the existing zoning on the 22 property now is still C-3C/R-4C, so technically if this zone change to add 23 additional uses was not permitted they could still develop a potentially 60- 24 foot tall building, or the maximum building height in the existing zoning on 25 the property is 60-feet in height. 26 27 Crane: They could. 28 29 Ochoa: Yes sir. 30 31 Crane: They're permitted to do it, so I'm trying to phrase this in a way that we 32 could vote on. I can't regard this as a ... this is simply a public comment is 33 it not? And if the zoning permits two stories then the people who are 34 making this note to us are really unable to force it single. Correct? 35 36 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman, it is basically a public comment that is ... they're requesting 37 for you to take that into consideration. 38 39 Crane: In that case if we have no further input from ... Commissioners you have 40 any questions on this for Mr. Ochoa? No. And nobody from Community 41 Development ... yes, Ms. Ferrary. 42 43 Ferrary: I haven't been able to locate their plans for the building size. Is that 44 included in this request? 45 6 I Ochoa: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Ferrary, there is a narrative by the 2 applicant's representative in there. Mr. Kary Bulsterbaum kind of 3 explaining what they're looking at potentially building with the VA facility, 4 and I believe he could possibly touch a little ... give more example of what 5 they're looking at building, but there are no actual specific building plans 6 as of now ma'am. 7 8 Ferrary: And they ... do they ... is there a request for how tall the building will be? 9 10 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Ferrary, no there is not a request for the it height of the building. 12 13 Ferrary: Okay. Thank you. 14 15 Crane: So, let me swear you in. Perhaps you should state your name first. 16 17 Bulsterbaum:My name is Kary Bulsterbaum. I'm a commercial real estate broker here 18 in town. 19 20 Crane: Okay. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is 21 the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 22 23 Bulsterbaum:I do. 24 25 Crane: Carry on please. 26 27 Bulsterbaum:l guess first of all just to answer your question Commissioner Ferrary, 28 sorry. The ... this may be subject to change, especially in lieu of all the 29 politics that's going on. All I can tell you is it's a potential site for the VA 30 clinic, not a guarantee that it may be located there. The specs as of this 31 moment would be approximately just over 10,000 square foot facility, 32 somewhere in the neighborhood of I believe 11,000 plus or minus. To my 33 knowledge the ... this could be subject to change. Most of these VA 34 clinics just due to the nature they don't want a lot of second story space 35 and elevator space and things like that. The likelihood that this would just 36 be a single story facility is pretty high. I don't see this going another level 37 if you will, and I can't say that with certainty element. It sounds likes the 38 zone codes already covered, they certainly don't want that changed if that 39 were to happen, but I would say the probability of this being a single story 40 would be pretty probable I guess would be the point. 41 42 Ferrary: Thank you for answering that. 43 44 Crane: Anybody else have any questions for Mr. Bulsterbaum? Any members ... 45 thank you sir. Any member of the public wish to address this question? 46 Yes, sir. Please come up, identify yourself. Say your name please. 7 1 2 Winham: Good evening. My name is Steve Winham. I live there on Valverde Loop, 3 close by. 4 5 Crane: Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth 6 and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 7 8 Winham: Yes. 9 10 Crane: Thank you. 11 12 Winham: A couple of questions I have ... after we had looked at the notice is; one is 13 1 can foresee there being a need for a traffic light being put in there at 14 Mars and Del Rey with the activity that would be created between ... with 15 the VA clinic, not knowing exactly how much activity would be there but 1 16 would suspect it would be rather significant, so I think that would be 17 something that would need to be considered. 18 19 Crane: Mr. Ochoa do you ... is there a traffic study involved in this at this point? 20 21 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman our traffic engineering department did review the proposed 22 zone change. They did recommend approval for the proposed zone 23 change with the conditions that essentially in the future when development 24 does happen a TIA or traffic impact analysis would be required of the 25 property, when development happens and potential changes to you know, 26 to the road, adding decel. lanes and acceleration lanes, or possibly adding 27 lights there at that intersection. That's what the traffic impact analysis 28 would determine for traffic engineering sir. 29 30 Crane: Okay. Thank you, so that's in hand. Does that answer your question sir? 31 32 Winham: Yes, and I guess one of the second questions would be included as to the 33 ... where the entrance would be ... entrance and exit, would it be off of Del 34 Rey or off of Mars? 35 36 Crane: Can you illuminate Mr. Ochoa? 37 38 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman at this time that has not been determined as of yet. 39 Unfortunately it's in such a preliminary phase they don't know where 40 exactly that entrance or exit would be on the property sir. 41 42 Crane: Thank you. 43 44 Winham: Just a comment follow-up on that, is ... as a citizen or person that lives 45 there on Valverde I would highly recommend ... I think all the residents 46 that live there, that it would be placed ... the entrance would be on Del 8 I Rey rather than on Mars which is the street that goes to the housing there 2 which would create a lot of congestion. So the other comment I have is 1 3 would support the building being only one story if that's enforceable. 4 Thank you. 5 6 Crane: Thank you sir. Any other member of the public wish to address this 7 matter? Then I'll close this to public discussion. Commissioners. Let me 8 hear a motion that 22873 be approved. The change of zoning from C- 9 3C/R-4C conditional to C-3C/R-4C. Somebody _. Mr. Clifton. 10 11 Clifton: I make a motion we approve Case 22873 as recommended with 12 conditions by staff. Condition one, a minimum of 10 dwelling units per 13 acre and a minimum of 40 dwelling units per acre shall be permitted on 14 the subject property. Two, all newly constructed utilities be placed 15 underground. Three, the C3 commercial high intensity uses on the 16 subject property shall be limited to those specified in the attachment, 17 attachment number five. And four, chain link fencing adjacent to Del Rey 18 Boulevard will only be permitted in conjunction with mini storage units. If 19 chain link fencing is utilized, a broken landscape buffer shall be 20 established along the entire property boundary adjacent to Del Rey 21 Boulevard with the fence placed behind said landscape. A broken 22 landscape buffer requires trees and shrubs to be located so that their 23 outmost limbs touch the time of maturity. 24 25 Crane: Thank you. 26 27 Beard: Second. 28 29 Crane: Seconded by Mr. Beard. Any discussion? Then we'll do a roll call vote 30 starting with ... did you want to say something Ms. Ferrary? 31 32 Ferrary: Yes. The question, was it finalized whether or not we could enforce a 33 single story or not? 34 35 Crane: My impression was from what Mr. Ochoa said was we could not enforce it 36 but Mr. Bulsterbaum did say that it was very unlikely that it would go 37 beyond a single story. 38 39 Ferrary: Okay, I just wanted to confirm that. 40 41 Crane: Am I correct Mr. Ochoa? 42 43 Ochoa: Mr. Crane you definitely are allowed to limit the height of a building with a 44 condition, of course that condition would be something you'd have to vote 45 on and the applicant would have to be agreeable to that condition to move 9 I that condition forward. Essentially that's typically how it works by adding 2 additional conditions like that sir. 3 4 Crane: Thank you. Ms. Ferrary do you want to suggest an amendment as ... an 5 additional condition as an amendment? 6 7 Ochoa: Mr. Chairman, pardon me for interrupting sir but there's already a motion 8 set forward by Commissioner Clifton and it's been seconded so it does 9 need to be voted on sir. 10 11 Crane: Surely we can vote on amendments to that before we vote on the motion. 12 13 Ochoa: No sir. Since it's already been seconded we cannot. 14 15 Beard: Couldn't we have a discussion? 16 17 Crane: Well we can discuss. 18 19 Ochoa: I believe a discussion can be made or can be done but that motion still 20 needs to be voted up sir. 21 22 Crane: Very well, so those of us who would perhaps like to see an additional 23 condition put there should vote against the motion as it stands and then 24 we can entertain a new motion with the additional condition. Very well, 25 let's take a vocal vote on Z2873. Mr. Clifton. 26 27 Clifton: Aye. 28 29 Crane: And could you say why sir. 30 31 Clifton: Aye based on staff presentation, case packet materials, applicant 32 presentation, the fact that the case meets zoning code article one, section 33 38-2d, Comprehensive Plan 2040, sustainable growth goal 32, policy 32.3 34 and section 38-2 of the 2001 Zoning Code as amended. 35 36 Crane: Thank you. Commissioner Stowe. 37 38 Stowe: Nay, based on discussions this evening. 39 40 Crane: Okay. Commissioner Ferrary. 41 42 Ferrary: Nay, based on site, visit, discussions, and findings. 43 44 Crane: Commissioner Beard. Thank you. 45 46 Beard: Yes, based on conditions and discussions. 10 1 2 Crane: The chair votes aye based on findings, discussion, and site visit. So the 3 motion passes three votes to two. Thank you all. 4 5 Beard: Could we even discuss a little bit about her objection? I mean I would like 6 to ... 7 8 Crane: 1 think we're allowed to do that. 9 10 Clifton: Mr. Chair. 11 12 Crane: Mr. Clifton, yes. 13 14 Clifton: Could we get conformance from legal before we proceed discussing a 15 case that's been voted on? 16 17 Cabello: I don't think ... since this has already been voted on, it's not on the 18 consent to have new findings that were not on there. I don't think this 19 could be discussed again right now. 20 21 Crane: Thank you. So that matter is closed. 22 23 2. Case 5-13-030W: Application of Western Lands Surveying on behalf of Jose 24 A and Martha C Gamboa, property owners, to waive 100% of the road 25 improvement requirements for Saromi Lane and Cortez Drive, a proposed 26 collector roadway. The proposed waiver is associated with improvements 27 required for a proposed alternate summary subdivision known as Gamboa 28 Acres Subdivision on a 5.01 +/- acre tract located on the southwest corner of 29 Cortez Drive and Saromi Lane; 7486 Cortez Drive; ParcelID# 02-25523. 30 Proposed Use: Two (2) new rural single-family residential lots; Council 31 District 6 (Levatino). POSTPONED UNTIL JULY 22ND PLANNING AND 32 ZONING MEETING. 33 34 3. Case PUD-14-01: Application of The Arbors at Del Rey located at 3731 Del 35 Rey Boulevard, Parcel numbers 02-25264 and 02-25265, to rezone two lots 36 totaling 4.98 +/- acres from C-2C (Commercial Medium Intensity, Conditional) 37 to Planned Unit Development (PUD) in order to: (1) allow an existing nursing 38 home/assisted living facility as a principal permitted use; (2) allow the raising 39 of small animals as an accessory use to the assisted living facility use; (3) 40 allow the existing 2.49-acre lot size as-of-right; and (4) allow other 2001 41 Zoning Code C-2 District development standards and land uses to apply with 42 the PUD. Council District 5 (Sorg) 43 44 Crane: We will proceed, since Case S-13-030W is postponed, to Case PUD-14- 45 01, application of the Arbors at Del Rey located at 3731 Del Rey 46 Boulevard to rezone two lots from commercial C-2C to ... conditional ... to 11 1 planned unit development. And you've all got the details in front of you. 2 You're going to present Ms. Montana? 3 4 Montana: Yes, thank you Mr. Chair, Commissioners. If you'll give me a moment to 5 get my mouse working so I could switch. 6 7 Crane: You know it's a principle that no animals are hurt during Planning and 8 Zoning meetings. 9 10 Montana: Come here. Come here. Come here. Okay. Thank you Commission. 11 What you have before you is a request to rezone a property at 3731 Del 12 Rey Boulevard and ... there we go. Right now the property is zoned C-2 13 but it's a 1981 designation of the C-2. The property was built or 14 developed in 1996 under the 1981 Zoning Code. At the time that zoning 15 code allowed a nursing home to be built on the property and it was built 16 with permits. In 2001 the zoning code changed and no longer allowed 17 nursing homes in the C-2 district. I remembered I need to take an oath of 18 office. Not an oath of office but an oath that I'm telling the truth tonight. 19 20 Crane: Of course you do. Do you swear or affirm Ms. Montana that the testimony 21 you are about to give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of 22 law? 23 24 Montana: I do. Thank you. 25 26 Crane: We could of course say that all members of Community Development are 27 continually under oath. 28 29 Montana: Automatically. Yes. So, now the existing nursing home wishes to add a 30 program, a therapeutic program to the existing nursing home which is now 31 called assisted living facility. However, because it's a legal nonconforming 32 use the current C-2 zoning doesn't allow a nursing home or assisted living 33 facility. It isn't allowed to do that, so for that reason they're seeking a 34 rezoning and in this case it's ... we're calling it an application for a planned 35 unit development because we want to add a specific land use which is the 36 nursing home or assisted living facility and we're adding the raising of 37 animals as an accessory use to that principle use at the assisted living 38 facility. And in addition, the C-2 ... the current C-2 zoning does not allow 39 more than one acre per lot. So the current lots each, there's two lots, they 40 each are about 2.49 acres, so they exceed that maximum lot size. So for 41 that reason we're approaching this as a planned unit development. The 42 property is located right off of Del Rey Boulevard, north of Mars. And I will 43 show you in later slides what the land uses are adjacent to it, but it's 44 mixed commercial, institutional, and residential. 45 These are the two parcels that are subject to the PUD. This parcel 46 is half developed with the nursing home and the next parcel under the 12 I same ownership is vacant. So half of this parcel is vacant as well. 2 There's medical facilities here and residential ... single-family residential 3 here, and you just heard a case for this property here which may or may 4 not be the Veteran's Administration clinic. This is the subject parcel with 5 the nursing home and there is existing outdoor, enclosed or fenced, 6 outdoor patio area, resting area for the residents. These are elder 7 residents. And this is the area where the animal care program would be 8 located. And I have a few more slides of that. Again the nursing home, 9 the outdoor resting area, garden area, and the animal care area. And this 10 is the enclosed garden area and this would be where the animal care 11 facilities would be located. And I want to go back to show you the 12 distance between where the animal care facility would be and the nearest 13 homes, is quite some distance. The animal care facility would be located 14 behind the outdoor garden so it would not be visible from the street, from 15 the public street, and it's quite some distance to these residential homes. 16 And I have a later slide that shows you where some of the protests are 17 located, where the homes are located. 18 So we would be legalizing an existing use and allowing an 19 accessory use, the animal care, as an additional therapy program for the 20 elder residents. It would make both properties, bring them into jurisdiction 21 of the 2001 Zoning Code with the exception it would allow the nursing 22 home or assisted living facilities and the animal care as accessory. And it 23 would legalize the lot size. Now there have been protests from adjacent 24 property owners in a later slide I'll show you where those homes are 25 located relative to the property. And yesterday and today I received 26 additional letters of both support and protest in this packet. It was too late 27 to put into your packet which you received last week, so some of the 28 protester from property owners nearby and some of the supporters are 29 from organizations that support the care of animals, but mostly they 30 support, on what's called food security, growing of food, raising of animals, 31 mainly for food. The applicants are not going to be raising these animals 32 for food, they're going to be caring for them for therapy for the elder 33 residents, for comforting, companionship, and cuddling so to speak for the 34 residents, not for food. 35 This is a slide showing the animal care ... location of the animal 36 care facility and one of the protesting property owners, and another 37 protesting property owners, and a third. Staff believes that the animal 38 care facility is quite some distance from these residential properties and 39 noise from the animals would not be discerned at these residential 40 properties. This property to the north is a medical care facility, it's not a 41 residence, so we don't believe that the project ... the animal care portion 42 of the project would be a nuisance to adjacent property owners. Now 43 there is some controversy so to speak about roosters. I don't know if the 44 applicants are planning to have a rooster. They want to have a pair of 45 chickens, a pair of ducks, and some other small animals. They can speak 46 to you, they're here tonight of course, as to whether or not they'd have 13 I roosters. I don't think the sound, the crowing of roosters in the morning 2 would be discerned by these residents, maybe to these residents here, 3 and I don't know if you want to limit the care of animals or condition them 4 such that they don't have a rooster. That's something that we could 5 discuss tonight. As I mentioned, we don't believe that any noise or odor 6 emanating from the animal care portion of this PUD would be a nuisance 7 or a distraction to neighboring residents and therefore staff is 8 recommending approval without conditions. 9 So your options of course tonight Commissioners are to; vote yes 10 to recommend to the City Council this PUD; to vote no to deny it, 11 recommend denial to the ... of the PUD to City Council; to vote to modify 12 by adding a condition; or to table this for further discussion. I'm happy to 13 answer any questions you may have. 14 15 Crane: Thank you Ms. Montana. Commissioners? Commissioner Beard. 16 17 Beard: I noticed that in the application it didn't state which animals and I would 18 not like to approve an open ended statement of animals and not know just 19 which animals we're talking about, so I would like to have a list of the 20 animals that would be put ... possibly be put into this area, into this permit 21 before we vote on it. 22 23 Montana: Commissioner Beard. The applicant is here to sort of speak into or read 24 into the record what animals they would propose. We've had a back and 25 forth discussion via e-mail as to which animals they would bring to this 26 location and so they are here tonight and I think they're prepared to make 27 a statement as to what animals and how many of each they would bring to 28 the facility. 29 30 Beard: Okay. What I was looking at was their application which it didn't have that 31 in there. And the Chairman just pointed out on page 210 that there is a list 32 of animals. I don't know if that's part of the condition. 33 34 Montana: That list of animals were suggestions. I think tonight they will make a firm 35 statement as to which animals they would like to bring to the facility and 36 how many of each. 37 38 Beard: Okay. Thank you. 39 40 Crane: Mr. Clifton. 41 42 Clifton: Mr. Chair I think I know where Commissioner Beard was going with this 43 and if the Commission does vote to authorize animals on site, I do think 44 we do need a list of how many and what exactly are they. I don't know if 45 you've ever heard a peacock, but they're pretty loud. 46 14 I Crane: Thank you. Ms. Montana is this going to be a totally enclosed facility as to 2 say a building, or a building combined with an outdoor ranging area? 3 4 Montana: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, this is an open-air enclosed facility, so they will 5 have coops and little cages and benches for the elders to be within the 6 enclosed area, but it's not an ... totally enclosed ... it's fenced. When 1 7 say enclosed I mean fenced. 8 9 Crane: So odors, flying insects, and so on would not necessarily be confined to 10 the premises? 11 12 Montana: Well to the degree that they're attracted to the premises, they're confined, 13 but not necessarily roof enclosed with walls. 14 15 Crane: All right. Thank you. Any other Commissioners have questions for Ms. 16 Montana? Thank you. Is the applicant present? Please come up, give us 17 your name. Are you gentlemen going to speak jointly or separately? 18 19 Trevizo: Jointly. 20 21 Crane: Jointly. All right. Very well. Each give your name please, you first sir. 22 23 Trevizo: My name is Tony Trevizo. I'm the executive director for the Arbors of Del 24 Rey. 25 26 Crane: All right. And you sir? 27 28 Spradlin: And my name is Gregory Spradlin. I'm the registered nurse at the Arbors 29 of Del Rey. 30 31 Crane: Thank you. Gentlemen do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are 32 about to give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 33 34 Trevizo: Yes. 35 36 Spradlin: Yes. 37 38 Crane: Thank you. Okay, who wants to go first? 39 40 Trevizo: Okay, the reason that we're planning not only to kind of bring us back to 41 you know today's modern zoning, the reason we're asking for this 42 application and for the animals specifically is that we're trying to achieve 43 or actually we're trying to partake in a national movement, it's a different 44 way of approach in providing care for our elders and it's called the Eden 45 Alternative. I'm not sure if you folks had a chance to kind of do a little 46 research on that but the premise behind that is just reconnecting our 15 I elderly with animals, people, and children. I mention children because in 2 many cases a lot of times you find that people are reluctant to bring their 3 children to places like nursing homes and assisted facilities because it's 4 just not ... it doesn't seem to be appropriate place for them, even though 5 you know mom, grandpa, cousin, uncle, whoever the relationship may be 6 is in that place. Having animals at our location, part of the therapeutic 7 program is to encourage not only family members but the community at 8 large, from schools to even the daycare across the street from us. 9 They've come and visited us, many a times come over and spend time 10 with our elders and outside and enjoy our ... we have a couple of rabbits I i already in a nice hutch in the backyard and so we find that that's a positive 12 thing. 13 1 know we were just talking, and I asked Greg, 1 thought he put that 14 in there to answer your question as far as the types of animals, and I'm 15 going to let you answer that. 16 17 Spradlin: Yeah, what we're looking at is having like a couple of ducks, couple of 18 chickens, a small miniature goat, and a peacock if possible, along with the 19 two rabbits that we have, the cockatiels inside, and we also have a couple 20 of turtles inside. So that's basically what we're looking at as far as the 21 number of animals and types of animals that we'd like to have. 22 23 Crane: Thank you. Commissioners, any questions for these gentlemen? 24 Commissioner Ferrary. 25 26 Ferrary: How will the animals be provided conditions from the heat and the cold, if 27 they're just going to be out in the open air? 28 29 Trevizo: Yes, well we are ... what we're doing is just trying to mirror a model that 30 we have in Sierra Vista up in Santa Fe. We are owners, we own two 31 properties, this one here, the Arbors, and Sierra Vista in Santa Fe. They 32 to this day are the only assisted living home in the state of New Mexico 33 that has achieved the Eden Alternative. We're very proud of that. It 34 brought a lot of recognition to the state of New Mexico when they were 35 featured on the USA Today. And it made quite an impact because to this 36 day, not from the business standpoint, but it's really generated a lot of 37 interest, people have literally moved from different parts of the country to 38 Santa Fe to get their loved ones in that particular facility. Not to get off on 39 your ... you know get away from the question but, we have that 40 experience. We've had those animals at Sierra Vista now for over 12 41 years and from our experience and what we have there again to kind of 42 model what they have is we will have an open enclosed structure. We 43 have dens if you will for like the goat, protecting ... right now currently on 44 the property we have kind of ... it's kind of like the volcanic rock. That's 45 going to be taken out and replaced with probably two or three inches of 46 earth. That will address the heat from the rocks. So we're going to make 16 I the ground appropriate for the animals, but there will be overhangs and 2 there will be cover for the animals. Probably some of the climate 3 differences between Santa Fe and us obviously is the heat, but then again 4 they have you know harsher winters than we do. And you know it's ... 5 these are very resilient animals. I personally have ... I have ducks on my 6 property and they quack and I can't hear them and they're like 80 yards 7 away from my window and I ... as far as the noise is concerned. And you 8 know in the wintertime they ... they're very resilient you know. When you 9 get really harsh conditions ... I have no problem, not that I've ... not that 10 we've experienced it up in Santa Fe, but our number one concern is that 11 you know good care of those animals. If we've got to bring them indoors 12 somewhere temporarily, take them to my property and house them there 13 until the weather gets better, we will. You know we're committed to this. 14 You know, not only do we care for elders but we're going to care for 15 animals just as much because they're going to be our pets. You know we 16 love our dogs and we love our cats, and we'll do anything for our dogs and 17 cats. That's the same thing that we're going to do for your animals. 18 19 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Beard. 20 21 Beard: Excuse me. How large is the facility in Santa Fe in comparison to what 22 you're doing here? 23 24 Trevizo: The facility is actually almost the same size. We're licensed for 24, they're 25 licensed for 24. Now the structure itself is almost like, kind of call it the 26 pentagon because it has a large courtyard in the center of the home, so 27 yes, do they have a bigger footprint, they do, but as far as the square 28 footage, they're probably about 3,000 square foot larger than we are, but 29 the number of residents is ... it's the same. We're licensed for the same. 30 31 Beard: I was thinking about the area that would be away from the neighbors for 32 smell, feather, or noise. In the area that you show that I see on the map, it 33 doesn't look very large for all of the numbers of animals that you're talking 34 about; peacocks take a large area. I mean you just don't put them in a 35 small area, and they make a lot of noise by the way. And the ducks 36 require probably a pond, so I just didn't think that from what I was looking 37 at that there was a large enough area for all of these animals that you're 38 talking about. Have you ... I mean do you have ... obviously you've 39 thought about it but it would be nice to see a plan as to how big of an area 40 you have for each one of these animals. 41 42 Trevizo: Again, you know everything that we've done and we're looking to mirror 43 what we currently have at Sierra Vista and the space that we're looking to 44 use is exact space that they have in Santa Fe now. Are the rules a little 45 different in Santa Fe? I'm not sure as far as the size and containment. 1 46 do know that it works. It's in existence and we just look to model that. 17 1 2 Beard: Well that's good, but I think we would ... the audience or the president and 3 the commission would like to see that. 4 5 Trevizo: Okay. And the other thing Commissioner is that the proposed site up 6 there, that's one. The other alternative is on the opposite side of the 7 property which gives us more space which does bring us a little closer to 8 the road but again I think that you know it's debatable as to whether it still 9 gets a little too close to other properties or other people that's concerned 10 about this. But if that was going to be a challenge and this is too small, we 11 have space on the other side which is much larger to work with. 12 13 Beard: Thank you. 14 15 Crane: Commissioner Ferrary. 16 17 Ferrary: Does the Eden Alternative have guidelines for the care of the animals or 18 would you be conducive to working with Animal Protection of New 19 Mexico? 20 21 Trevizo: Part one ... 22 23 Crane: Excuse me a minute. I have a hand up, Ms. Rogers, is this point or order? 24 25 H-Rogers: It's not a point of order. I ... Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we 26 can wait until Commissioner Ferrary was done. I just wanted to provide 27 some additional information about the care of animals, the sizing of their 28 enclosures, number of those things. 29 30 Crane: Okay, I'll recognize you in a minute. Thank you. 31 32 H-Rogers: Thank you. 33 34 Crane: Continue Ms. Ferrary. 35 36 Ferrary: That was my question. Just if they would be agreeable to those things, 37 but it sounds like they ... 38 39 Crane: I too am ... have questions about the size and the number of occupants at 40 this facility. Go ahead Ms. Harrison-Rogers. 41 42 H-Rogers: Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, I do want to specify that although 43 our zoning can dictate whether or not certain types of animals are allowed 44 within city limits, the Municipal Code, Chapter seven, is what dictates the 45 minimum size of their enclosures, how they're cared for, and a number of 46 other items regarding the shade structures that are provided, the size of 18 1 the parcel, the density of the animals on that particular parcel how that's 2 broken down. If you'd like some information regarding that I do know that 3 we ... I don't have a copy of the full Municipal Code here, since that is 4 outside our purview, that's a code enforcement issue, but I might check 5 with legal to see if they have their Chapter seven Municipal Code and 1 6 can give you some details on that if you'd like me to get that organized for 7 you. 8 9 Crane: Thank you. Let me ask the applicants if they are familiar with this code 10 that you presumably have to obey in the care of your animals? 11 12 Trevizo: I am not familiar with the particulars but we are willing to conform to 13 whatever guidelines are set forth. 14 15 Crane: Commissioner Beard. 16 17 Beard: I raise homing pigeons in the city limits. There's seven of us. In order to 18 get ... we had to get a permit and be inspected. We had to join a society 19 for that species so that we were up to date as to the care and the 20 medicines required for those particular ... in my case for homing pigeons. 21 1 would think that that would be done on each species of animal that you 22 had and your facility would have to be inspected for each species of 23 animal or bird that you have. And I'm not certain that we should be 24 passing something that we don't know ... I don't know, for if this is the 25 right order ... whether they should get a permit first or whether we should 26 allow them to do it without a permit. 27 28 Crane: We're looking at a zoning question. Ms. Harrison-Rogers can you 29 elucidate. 30 31 H-Rogers: Yes. Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, again Chapter seven of the 32 Municipal Code regarding animals dictates what requires a special permit 33 and what does not. Typically there are certain types of animals; chickens, 34 even in some districts equine, swine, and of course we're not going there 35 with this particular case, but depending upon the zoning district, there are 36 some animals that are allowed without requiring a special use permit. In 37 certain areas of the city if you're not zoned appropriately you can get a 38 special permit for bird rehabilitation for example is one, but it does require 39 certain permits and inspections, but that's something that's dictated by the 40 Municipal Code. It's also somewhat dictated by the zone that you're in, it's 41 sort of two fold. The zoning code speaks to parts of it but then the care of 42 that and special permits is found within the Municipal Code, Chapter 43 seven regarding animals. 44 45 Crane: Thank you. Do you happen to know gentlemen what code or rules they 46 have to follow up in Santa Fe? 19 1 2 Trevizo: Santa Fe ... you know one of the things that my regional or my boss up 3 there who runs Sierra Vista is ... we talk about how different Las Cruces 4 and Santa Fe is. You know ... 5 6 Crane: We're more sophisticated down here. 7 8 Trevizo: Yeah. I agree. 9 10 Crane: Thank you. 11 12 Trevizo: So they kind of ... they're not as restricted up there, so they didn't face 13 these challenges. This is ... you know this is ... this is new for us, we're 14 asked you know to move forward and join this movement which we're 15 committed on doing ... you know, in some conversations with ... up in 16 Sierra Vista they're kind of dumbfounded because really why so much red 17 tape and you know, they didn't find these challenges so I don't have a 18 reference or that history for them to kind of guide me through the process. 19 Don't know if that's the answer you're looking for but they're kind of not 20 restricted to many rules. I don't know if they're kind of living in the wild 21 wild west up there but, again they're successful up there. No one's 22 complained about it and again it's ... it's a great program. 23 24 Crane: I'm surprised to find as gentrified a place as Santa Fe is so relaxed but I'm 25 personally a little, more than a little concerned about the fuzziness of this 26 proposal. I'd like to know how many square feet this enclosure is. 1'd like 27 to know how many of each animal you're planning to get, and I am 28 concerned that roosters can be noisy in the morning, evidentially you've 29 considered the feelings of your residents. I agree with Mr. 30 31 Beard: Beard. 32 33 Crane: Beard, peacocks are noisy. I camped some place with peacocks once 34 and I couldn't believe the noise in the morning. Charming but noisy and I 35 can't see big animals like that, big birds like that being in a small enclosure 36 with chickens and rabbits, particularly if they're all scurrying around. It 37 seems to me a little more thinking out needs to be done or at least some 38 research on what they're doing in Santa Fe. And I don't know where that 39 place is within the city limits of Santa Fe, whether it's close in as you are 40 to residential areas, but in any event that's not particularly relevant for 41 what we're doing here. Commissioners, any other questions for these 42 folks. Mr. Clifton. 43 44 Clifton: I do have a question for staff. Did animal control review this? I mean 1 45 understand that there's other elements of animal control laws that fall into 46 the Municipal Code, but it's not uncommon in the past that the staff has 20 I imposed conditions on an applicant outside the zoning code and ... cause 2 1 know as a dog owner if my dog's barking too much I get a visit from 3 codes enforcement and a citation to magistrate court. 4 5 Crane: Ms. Harrison-Rogers you want to say something at some point? 6 7 Montana: Mr. Chair, Commissioners ... 8 9 Crane: Ms. Montana's speaking. 10 11 Montana: Yes. 12 13 Crane: Put your mike on ma'am. 14 15 Montana: I think it is. Can you hear me? We did not submit this for review to animal 16 control or the police department. Usually they get involved if there's a 17 complaint and there had not been a complaint. The applicant came in 18 proactively to seek this ... to seek this permit. 19 20 Crane: Thank you. Sir. On the mike please. 21 22 Spradlin: When I did start this whole process I did call animal control and spoke with 23 ... I didn't bring his name but the supervisor in that section and he actually 24 referred me to here. 25 26 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Beard. 27 28 Beard: Did you ask if ... it used to be ducks you couldn't have in the city. Did you 29 ask him about ducks? 30 31 Spradlin: He actually spoke of different exotic birds and things like that that you had 32 to work with as far as code number seven that you were talking about in 33 those laws and things like that. And that's ... in our application I did put 34 that in there that we would abide by that as well in the type of animals that 35 we would be having. 36 37 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Clifton ... Mr. Harrison-Rogers. 38 39 H-Rogers: Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, our legal staff was able to bring 40 down the Municipal Code that speaks to the keeping of small animals 41 which is what we're discussing this evening, so if you would like me to 42 provide additional information about the size limitations, the types of 43 animals, I would be glad to provide that for you. 44 45 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Clifton. 46 21 I Clifton: Thank you Mr. Chair. Staff didn't really answer my question, I mean it's 2 not uncommon that in situations like this, it's not typical that you see an 3 applicant come in with a request for peacocks, that it would've been sent 4 to the code enforcement department just as a courtesy review. It would've 5 been good feedback for the Commission to know that somebody at the 6 city's on top of this and quite frankly I agree, I don't ... I don't feel 7 comfortable at all with the animal issue, it's too loose, there's really no 8 specific conditions. 9 10 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Beard. I1 12 Beard: I think the Commission deserves to know exactly what it is that they can 13 have, what they want to have, and how many. And then secondly I think 14 that the neighbors also require that information so that they can better 15 judge whether they want it in their neighborhood or not. 16 17 Crane: Any other Commissioners have questions for the applicants? Thank you 18 gentlemen. 19 20 Trevizo: On last thing, just for the record, there's been a lot of talk about rooster 21 and all kinds of things, it's going to be ... and we're going to look at the 22 type of species of chicken, it's not going to be just any kind of chicken, 23 we're going to look to see ... we have a couple and my boss couldn't tell 24 me what breed, so we're going to refer back to the maintenance person 25 who bought the chickens a couple of years ago, but, two chickens, two 26 ducks, a miniature goat, and a peacock. Now to the peacock, up in Santa 27 Fe that bird, they crow and they crow in the springtime. They crow 28 because they want to mate, they're seeking a mate. If there's not a mate 29 they're relatively quiet. And when they do crow they crow because they've 30 been startled or scared. That's our experience and that's coming from the 31 staff up in Santa Fe in regards to that. I know there's some ... there's a lot 32 of things and things are moving quite quickly but if we get the parameters 33 and the conditions as far as the size ... we will work with that. That's not a 34 problem. We have the space for it, as you can see from the property that 35 we own. Secondly, if we can ask for a postponement or you know a 36 review down the road and I will be more than happy to then provide not 37 only pictures of Sierra Vista but a more thought out plan, you know drawn 38 out with structures and size, and the such. 39 40 Crane: Thank you sir and let me point out that chicken is generic, we're 41 concerned here with hens or roosters. Now two hens would not be a 42 problem as far as I'm concerned, two roosters would be a hell of a 43 problem, and one of each probably a problem. I like your suggestion of 44 getting us some detail. Any other Commissioner? Yes, Mr. Beard. 45 22 1 Beard: I think what you're trying to do is great okay, I just don't know that we have 2 the plan down so that we can really say yeah or nay. We may want to 3 table it for additional information. I would personally like to hear from the 4 audience to see what their concerns are first. 5 6 Crane: Does any other Commissioner need to talk to the applicants? Thank you 7 gentlemen. Members of the public. 8 9 Trevizo: Thank you. 10 11 Crane: Thank you. Hands up please, I'd just like to get a feeling how many 12 people want to address this question. One, two, that's it? Three, okay. 13 Okay. Let me see the hands again so I can call on one of you; gentleman 14 in the blue shirt. Please identify yourself and I'll swear you in. 15 16 Burgos: My name is Juan Burgos. 17 18 Crane: Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth 19 and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 20 21 Burgos: Yes sir I do. 22 23 Crane: Thank you. 24 25 Burgos: Well I'm not necessarily against their proposal you know, I actually find 26 that very interesting and beneficial for the people they're taking care of. 27 My biggest concern is if you guys approve this change what kind of 28 benefits they're going to get in the near future to increase the amount of 29 animals and the type of animals that they can bring into the property. 30 That's my only concern. In the other hand is if there's any kind of clause 31 that you can somehow recommend to limit the number and the type of 32 animals they're going to have into the facility. 33 34 Crane: Thank you sir. We'll take it into account. Gentleman, you sir, in the brown 35 shirt. Give us your name again please, but we'll consider you still under 36 oath, all right. 37 38 Winham: Yes. Steve Winham. 39 40 Crane: Go ahead. 41 42 Winham: You have a letter that my wife and I submitted, I would just I guess refer 43 you to that letter for our thoughts on the matter. 44 45 Crane: Were you supportive or against? 46 23 1 Winham: Against. 2 3 Crane: Okay. 4 5 Winham: And for some of the same reasons that've been discussed; the noise level, 6 the possible sanitation issues. I realize maybe some people would say it's 7 ... our property is not that close to it, but especially with the peacock 8 issue, I've been around them as well. You can hear them for a great 9 distance if they do crow, so I would just refer you to the letter that we 10 issued or sent. 11 12 Crane: Thank you sir. There was somebody in the back, lady in the back. 13 14 Aguilar: Hello. I'm Christin Aguilar. And I'm here representing Las Mia Food 15 Center. 16 17 Crane: Ms. Aguilar, do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 18 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 19 20 Aguilar: Yes I do. 21 22 Crane: Go ahead please. 23 24 Aguilar: We would just like to express our support for this, recognizing fully that 25 this has nothing to do with raising animals for food, but just general 26 community health and wellbeing, documented benefits of animal 27 interaction. I would advocate for people having a garden even if they 28 weren't going to eat the food which I can't imagine, but you never know. 29 So, and just to reiterate that there are a lot of municipalities throughout the 30 nation, I have a background in food studies and anthropology and am 31 fairly familiar with animals allowed in other city limits like Santa Fe and 32 Albuquerque, though I don't know the specific details about all of their 33 codes and zoning. EI Paso as well allows chickens and roosters. 34 According to their codes departments they get less than one call regarding 35 even their roosters per every 100 calls for nuisance regarding roosters 36 and chickens. So there are a lot of different ways to mitigate those and 37 just to reiterate that that's always a completely viable option you know, 38 making sure that the goats of a certain size are spade or neutered to 39 control odor, certain species for example. So, we just wanted to voice our 40 support for such programs that really work to support community health in 41 innovative ways. Thank you all. 42 43 Crane: Thank you. Any other member of the public wish to contribute on this? 44 Then I'll close it to public discussion. Commissioners? I did hear some 45 talk which I thought was rather good about getting more clarification 46 before we move any further on this. 24 1 2 Beard: I'm certainly for that actually. I think it needs to be looked at a little bit 3 closer. The ... I hadn't even thought about the goats being neutered in 4 order ... and I don't what benefits that provides but ... and the chickens 5 we might specify that the chickens be only female type chickens. And the 6 peacocks, my ... the thing on peacocks, I don't know whether it was a 7 crow, but it was at nighttime and they cried like a screaming woman and 8 that's what they sounded like. 9 10 Crane: Iagree. 11 12 Beard: But anyway I thought there might be rabbits that would be included. 1 13 think rabbits would be a very nice thing to have in this particular thing. 1 14 mean it'd be a ... I don't know whether this is going to be a petting zoo or 15 not you know, we didn't talk about that. I think it would be kind of nice 16 where you can actually go in and put their hands on the animals and 17 actually feed the animals. I don't know what the city allows in that 18 particular area. I do know that they were very strict on me when I got my 19 permit and I was very happy to do everything that they requested. It's not 20 a hard thing to do, but you have to do certain things. It's ... one of them is 21 the knowledge of the animal that you're taking care of; are you taking care 22 of it correctly, are you giving it the right food, the medications, are there 23 diseases going around for that like mine on a homing pigeon, but anyway, 24 1 do think that there's more information required and maybe we should ask 25 the applicant if it would be alright to ... if they would object to having it 26 tabled and providing this type of information. 27 28 Crane: I hear you. Let me hear from the other Commissioners. Ms. Ferrary. 29 30 Ferrary: I agree with Commissioner Beard that it's ... sounds like a great program 31 and good for the residents and maybe they encourage people to come 32 and visit them, especially young children more often. I thought we could 33 rely on Municipal Codes but we're not real sure exactly how they apply to 34 all the animals that they're trying to attain and have, of whether or not they 35 really could have them or not. So possibly tabling until we can check all 36 these things out would be a good thing. 37 38 Crane: Commissioner Stowe. 39 40 Stowe: I'm of a like mind; number of animals, specific breeds, types, and leaning 41 toward the smaller animals. 42 43 Crane: Thank you. I agree with my colleagues. I have many many questions 44 about the enclosure; how high is it, will people be able to lean over in to it 45 or will it be much higher. What about admission to the enclosure? What 46 about supervision of the residents who might ... residents or their guests 25 I who might want to go in there? What indeed are the feeding methods? 1 2 would like to see dimensions, plans of where the hutches and coops and 3 what have you are going to be. I think peacocks are very problematical, 4 roosters probably would not be a good idea, hens are good, they get 5 around in a flock without any roosters and they don't seem to feel any 6 pain. Rabbits are good, and a miniature goat, as long as it doesn't butt 7 you are good. What about the issue of children being in there? I would 8 like to see details and the applicants did volunteer photographs of the 9 situation in Santa Fe, I'd like to see that too. So I agree with my 10 colleagues that if you are agreeable we'd like to table the matter until you 11 can come in with some more information. Are you clear as to what we 12 seem to be concerned about? The applicants are indicating clear. Yes 13 ma'am, Ms. Montana. 14 15 Montana: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, I believe we can get this information available 16 for the July 22nd Commission hearing. So if we could postpone this to 17 date certain of July 22nd then we wouldn't need to re-advertise everything. 18 19 Crane: I think that would be a good idea. Mr. Clifton. 20 21 Clifton: I make a motion we postpone this case ... what is it ... PUD-14-01 to the 22 July 22nd, 2014 Planning and Zoning meeting. 23 24 Crane: Seconded by ... 25 26 Ferrary: I second it. 27 28 Crane: Ms. Ferrary. Any discussion? Mr. Beard. 29 30 Beard: Could we have a city animal control person here for that meeting? 31 32 Montana: Certainly. But as part of the packet to you I will have all the chapter seven 33 regulations related to the animals that they select in the packet for you, but 34 1 can also ask one of our codes people in charge of the animals to attend 35 that meeting. 36 37 Beard: Good, I would like that. 38 39 Montana: Okay. 40 41 Crane: Okay, we'll ... we'll do a roll call vote, but of course we don't have to give 42 reasons for our decision, we'll start with Mr. Beard. We have a motion. 43 Mr. Clifton's motion that this be postponed to the 22nd. 44 45 Beard: Okay, I am saying yes or no? 46 26 1 Crane: Yep. 2 3 Beard: Oh, I see. I vote for the table, yes based on discussions. 4 5 Crane: Ms. Ferrary. 6 7 Ferrary: I vote yes to postpone. 8 9 Crane: Mr. Stowe. 10 11 Stowe: I vote yes. 12 13 Crane: And Mr. Clifton. 14 15 Clifton: Yes. 16 17 Crane: And the Chair votes yes. So we will vote five/nothing to postpone this until 18 22nd of July. Thank you. 19 20 4. Case Z2875: Application of the City of Las Cruces to rezone approximately 21 50 acres of a 300 acre parcel of vacant land owned by the U.S. Bureau of 22 Land Management (BLM) from H-Holding to C-3C-High Intensity Commercial 23 Conditional to accommodate new construction of a City-owned and operated 24 East Mesa Public Safety and Recreation Complex providing a police station, 25 a fire station and trails on land leased to the City by the BLM. Location is 100 26 N. Sonoma Ranch Boulevard; Parcel 02-39551. District 6 (Levatino) 27 28 Crane: The next item on the agenda is application Z2875. Application of the City 29 of Las Cruces to rezone approximately 50 acres of land owned by the 30 BLM from H-Holding to C-3C high intensity commercial conditional. And 31 Ms. Montana has the floor. 32 33 Montana: Thank you Mr. Chair, Commissioners. As you say this is a request for 34 rezoning of property that is currently under the ownership of the Bureau of 35 Land Management and it's designated H-Holding. Holding is a zoning 36 designation for property that is undeveloped and at the time it was 37 designated there were no plans for development. The property is located 38 off of Sonoma Ranch Boulevard, one would access it from Lohman or ... 39 winding across from, or down from 70. So it's right at the bottom really of 40 North Sonoma Ranch Boulevard. This is a close up. The larger property 41 owned by the Bureau of Land Management is about 350 acres and this 42 would be a 50-acre piece of that. The city would lease this property from 43 the BLM. As you can see this is a zoning map. I'm showing residential 44 zoning around it, a small pocket of commercial, planned unit development 45 which is also developed in residential use. So this would be the East 46 Mesa Public Safety and Recreation complex. 27 I Usually at a rezoning stage we don't have site plans but in the next 2 slide I will show you a conceptual site plan to give you and members of 3 the public an idea of what would be developed in phases, and the first 4 phase would be the public safety complex. This is the conceptual site 5 plan, access from Sonoma Ranch Boulevard. This is the phase one, it 6 would be about a two-story building which would house police and fire and 7 some associated city agencies, parking, public access parking, and 8 parking for the police and fire vehicles. Again this would be for the East 9 Mesa community ... servicing the East Mesa Community. In the future 10 there is land available in this 50 acres for an extension of a service road, 11 some other city agency development, but mainly it would remain 12 undeveloped for passive or trail recreation activities. I want to bring out a 13 point to you, this area here would remain undeveloped and it's about 1 14 believe about 150-feet distance from the property line and then residential 15 development here. So that's a good-sized buffer from the building or the 16 site of the Public Safety complex and the closest residential development. 17 It is undeveloped. There are some service roads for BLM on the 18 property but mainly it's native desert. The city would lease the land, about 19 50 acres, again for police, fire, and some public trails. In order to achieve 20 that the zoning is required because the holding designation does not allow 21 development. They selected the C-3 zoning, there is limited C-3 and it's 22 very limited land uses to the public safety, institutional, recreational uses, 23 because the property is 50 acres, and C-3 zoning does not have a 24 maximum lot size, whereas C-2, a lower intensity commercial does have a 25 maximum lot size. So that's why the C-3 was selected. The applicant, the 26 city did conduct an early notification meeting. They notified a registered 27 neighborhood association within a 500-foot radius of the site. They invited 28 them to a neighborhood meeting. It was held at the Dona Ana County 29 College campus and it was attended by about half a dozen people. Most 30 of the concerns expressed were possibly blockage of views, views of the 31 mountains to the east, and also they wanted to be assured that people 32 using the trail would have a ... parking on the property as a trial head such 33 that those trail users would not park on their residential streets. We 34 mailed notice to owners of property within the 500-foot radius as well and 35 of course posted a big yellow sign on the property, and we received no 36 comment as a result of that public notice. Based on the findings 37 presented in the staff report, staff is recommending approval or 38 recommending that the Commission recommend approval to City Council. 39 And I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. The applicant of 40 course is here. 41 42 Crane: Thank you Ms. Montana. Commissioners, any questions for Ms. 43 Montana? Mr. Clifton. 44 45 Clifton: Just a few questions and I just think we need to get it on the record to 46 clear it, typically with a zoning application whether you're the city or a 28 1 private developer you're required to submit an affidavit of zoning and a 2 signed application by the property owner. Now I understand it's 3 unreasonable to have ... the president or congress sign an application 4 directly for this one zone change request, but in the past I have seen 5 letters authorizing an applicant on take down of a lease on a BLM piece to 6 proceed with a zone change, not in support or denial or whatever, but just 7 authorizing on behalf of the property owner, the U.S. Government. And 1 8 would just like clarification as to why that's not in here and if this is in fact 9 authorized by the U.S. Government and then I will have some follow-up 10 questions. Thank you. 11 12 Montana: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Clifton, that was raised during the 13 application process. William Hamm, the director of our Land Management 14 Department is in negotiation with BLM and asked them if they would sign 15 such the affidavit, they declined. They're in negotiation about the lease 16 but it's their practice not to sign such a thing, but they of course are 17 participant, or well aware of the rezoning request by the city. 18 19 Clifton: Mr. Chair, staff, if a private landowner came in, a developer with a similar 20 zoning application on BLM land, would staff request an application signed 21 by the BLM, an affidavit, or would you allow them to further pursue their 22 proposal? 23 24 Montana: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, I can't answer that. However, the applicant is 25 here. Cathy Mathews and Tomas Mendez are here and they can answer 26 that on the part of their negotiations with BLM and I may have to defer to 27 the city attorney in terms of what I ... would we want a private applicant 28 who is seeking to rezone BLM land to have BLM sign that application ... 29 that affidavit, I'm not sure. Oh, Mr. Hamm is here. About your negotiation 30 with BLM. 31 32 Crane: Please identify yourself sir. 33 34 Hamm: Bill Hamm. 35 36 Crane: Can you speak on the mike pease? 37 38 Hamm: Bill Hamm, City Real Estate Manager, City of Las Cruces. 39 40 Crane: Okay, Mr. Hamm do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about 41 to give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 42 43 Hamm: Yes sir. 44 45 Crane: Go ahead please. Can you answer the question? 46 29 I Hamm: The city is entering into what's called a recreation and public purposes act 2 lease with the Bureau of Land Management for this parcel. That conveys 3 ... does not convey, it leases long-term to the city at a nominal rate for 4 public purpose uses only. As part of that process we asked to be 5 specifically advised the BLM that the ... what our intentions were, that the 6 property was unzoned or zoned H. We needed to rezone it to accomplish 7 the project. They did provide in writing to my office that they do not 8 basically get involved or otherwise sign any applications for rezones on 9 any of their properties. That's a policy that goes all the way to 10 Washington, DC evidentially, so that's where they're at. 11 12 Crane: Thank you sir. Did that answer your question Mr. Clifton? 13 14 Clifton: Mr. Chair, Mr. Hamm good evening. 15 16 Hamm: Good evening, Kirk. How you doing? 17 18 Clifton: I'm doing good. Thank you. Yourself? 19 20 Hamm: Yes sir. 21 22 Clifton: Good. Do you have an executed lease from the BLM yet? 23 24 Hamm: We do not. It's due probably looking like about August. 25 26 Clifton: Would that be before the City Council takes final action? 27 28 Hamm: Probably about the same time. 29 30 Clifton: An executed lease in essence would act as authorization. Obviously they 31 signed it, but the concern I have though is again whether a private citizen 32 came in with a development request, how they would be treated 33 conversely to how the city's proceeding with this application. 34 35 Hamm: Yeah, I'm not sure. The R and PP process that we're following right now 36 would not be available to the private sector. It's government specific, so 37 what their policy is in terms of how they handle the private ... private 38 sector end of things I am not privy to. I do not know. 39 40 Clifton: Okay. Thank you. 41 42 Hamm: Yes sir. 43 44 Crane: Any other questions of Mr. Hamm? Thank you sir. 45 46 Hamm: Yes, sir. Thank you. 30 1 2 Crane: Is the applicant here please? That was he. I was glad to get the 3 opportunity to introduce you. Okay, well we've asked our questions of 4 you, so thank you. Ms. Montana do you have something to add? 5 6 Montana: No, I'm available to answer any questions that I can. 7 8 Crane: Any other questions for Ms. Montana? Mr. Clifton. 9 10 Clifton: Just for the benefit of the public and the Commission, can you guys give 11 us some kind of an idea what we're going to see here. What's it's going to 12 be like, is there going to be a lot of traffic, was there a TIA, is there going 13 to be noise, smoke, what's going to happen to the mountain right there? 1 14 mean it's awfully close to the residents and I just ... you know I'm 15 concerned for the public and any potential disturbances it may cause. 16 And would just like a little more clarification on what is going to occur 17 there, that way the neighbors have an idea, they live there. 18 19 Crane: Who is this gentleman? Can you identify yourself sir? 20 21 Mendez: Yes sir. Good evening Commissioner. My name is Tomas Mendez, 22 architect for the City of Las Cruces. 23 24 Crane: Okay. Mr. Mendez do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are 25 about to give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 26 27 Mendez: Ido. 28 29 Crane: Go ahead please sir. 30 31 Mendez: To address Commissioner Clifton's questions, this area in here is the only 32 parcel or the only portion of the entire site that is going to be disturbed 33 with the inclusion of this service road, and you can barely make out a 34 turnaround right there, traffic circle, to allow emergency vehicles to get in 35 and out, as well as to allow traffic that may get in here to again exit back 36 onto Sonoma Ranch. If I may, I'd like to switch presentations. Okay. 37 Yes, on your drive. Is it here? 38 This is the same site plan with the superimposition of the floor plan 39 showing what it looks like, more or less to scale. I'd like to mention and 40 conferring with Cathy Mathews, the city's landscape architect, at present 41 these trails are not funded, they're not in our present ... in our next year's 42 fiscal budget but we do show them to illustrate to the Commission the 43 intent of the development. These boxes here, these three parcels are 44 potential building sites, each approximately two acres which is comparable 45 to this area down here to show future sites. There is no specific 46 designated function for those areas at present. 31 I This is a mass study that we showed at the public meeting that we 2 had up at the East Campus, or the Dona Ana Community College 3 campus, and this is a massing study, the building design has not been 4 finalized. We will hopefully begin the preparation of construction 5 documents within the next two to three weeks, but this is a brief or a 6 massing study. This roadway here that I'm highlighting with the cursor 7 would be Sonoma Ranch Boulevard. This is the service driveway showing 8 that roundabout back over here. This is an entrance to the public parking 9 lot and this would be the in and out for the fire department vehicles. This l0 graphic by the way was prepared by Williams Design Group, Gary 11 Williams is the project architect, he is in fact in the audience if you have 12 more specific questions, but at this point this is a preliminary massing 13 study. This shows the two story of the building here, one story of the fire 14 station apparatus bay over here. Does that answer your question Mr. 15 Clifton? 16 17 Clifton: More or less. Thank you. 18 19 Mendez: Thank you. 20 21 Crane: Thank you sir. Anybody else have any questions for Mr. Mendez? Thank 22 you. Members of public wish to address this issue? Okay I see one, two, 23 three, four, five. Okay, are you coming up as a couple? Two people 24 sitting next to each other. All right, come up please. Please identify 25 yourselves and I'll swear you in. Is the mike on Ms. Montana? 26 27 D. Overhiser:Dorothy Overhiser. 28 29 Crane: Thank you. And ... 30 31 C. Overhiser:Charles Overhiser. 32 33 Crane: Thank you sir. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 34 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 35 36 D. Overhiser.Yes. 37 38 C. Overhiser:I do. 39 40 Crane: Continue. 41 42 C. Overhiser:I'll start. Over two years ago there was a project to take 300 acres with ... 43 from BFL, BML, what is it? 44 45 D. Overhiser:BLM. 46 32 I C. Overhiser:Yeah, that group and you know the city was going to ... going to take it. 2 And this was part of the ... part of the whole thing. And it was six months 3 ago or so that you know we got a notice, a public notice on the whole thing 4 and we sent in our comments about it and so forth. And I see no 5 connection what so ever talked about with that. So I don't know what this 6 is all about. But anyway this 50 acres is part of that 300, so I don't know 7 ... is this going totally separate. Is that dead? I don't know. Is there any 8 answers to that? Secondly is it the ... with that they were talking about a 9 public safety building and some issues there and that's all they were 10 talking about, but now we have 50 acres carved out and we have a 11 generic code change that's going to be applied and in the plans some 12 buildings set out here and there. I'm very concerned that we're you know 13 just opening up the gate for something here because what gets started is 14 going to be the future. And making the zoning change, I heard earlier that 15 1 believe the zoning change allows 60-foot buildings. Also I heard earlier 16 on a project that a land or a buffer zone you cannot do anything, even 17 build parking lots. In this previous project they're talking about a 500-foot 18 buffer and now I see or hear that it's only going to be 150-feet. In addition 19 to this, is apparently there was a public hearing on this? I never got 20 notified. I live in the area. Apparently it was just organizations and not 21 just independent citizens living in the group. So there's a public hearing, 22 six people showed up and the only people that were notified were 23 organizations, not independent people living in that area. I'm not a 24 member of any organization that has a group there, even if I was a 25 member, if I wasn't on the board I never would've heard about it. So 1 26 think this is got very little public information out here about it and I'm very 27 confused about what's going on here. I'd like a few answers. 28 29 Crane: Well you're in the right place sir. Ms. Montana can you address some of 30 Mr. Overhiser's problems or Mr. Hamm? 31 32 Hamm: In terms of the lease, the notification that the gentleman is speaking about 33 1 believe would've been the notification, the notice of reality action that the 34 BLM publishes in the federal register. That's a national database 35 publication where the BLM notifies the public at large of their intentions of 36 what they ... their intensions are for land holdings throughout the country. 37 That would pertain to R&PP leases which this 350 acres total, that parcel, 38 this 50 acres is part of 350 acres total, that would pertain to R&PP as well 39 as disposals into the private sector, things of that nature. So that's the 40 notification that is likely, it's about six months ago. And this application 41 here on the 50 acres is specifically for the Public Safety facility campus. 42 The remaining acreage is there ... at this time it's planned for, 43 conceptually for recreational uses, but there are no plans for the next 10, 44 20 years for that component. The plan of development that was submitted 45 to the BLM which is required as part of their application, city's application 46 with them, requires a timeframe and timeframes into the future that shows 33 I a phasing approach; of what is imminent now is only the campus ... the 2 safety facility. The remainder of it is pure speculation at this point, but it's 3 obviously dependent on funding, etc. I'm not sure if I addressed the 4 question totally. 5 6 Crane: Thank you sir. The Overhiser's, how does that help you? Does that 7 answer some of your questions at least? 8 9 C. Overhiser:Not at all. We've been very very concerned about this issue and we read 10 our mail and our e-mails very carefully. This meeting at the Dona Ana 11 Community College campus, I don't understand, was that open to the 12 public or not? 13 14 Crane: Ms. Montana. 15 16 Montana: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, of course that meeting was open to the public 17 but the neighborhood associations within the 500-feet radius of the 18 boundary of the 50 acres were the only ones that are required by code to 19 be invited and therefore those are the organizations that were invited. 20 21 C. Overhiser:We live on Calle Belleza. This is going to impact us greatly and we never 22 received notification. And you also said you got no disconcerting or 23 negative ... 24 25 Montana: Comments. 26 27 C. Overhiser:Input from any of the residents and my husband and I did send an e-mail 28 probably four months ago when we were asked, do we have any input? 29 30 Crane: Ms. Overhiser you have to be recognized by the chair before you speak. 31 Okay. 32 33 C. Overhiser:I'm sorry. 34 35 Crane: Ms. Montana, you're looking for some answers there? 36 37 Montana: Yes, I am. The ... I'm looking for the list of neighborhood associations. 38 39 C. Overhiser:May I speak? 40 41 Crane: Mr. Overhiser. 42 43 C. Overhiser:Yes, where we live there is no neighborhood association. There's ... 44 45 Crane: What we ... 46 34 1 C. Overhiser:We don't pay dues. We don't have an organization. We don't have one. 2 3 Crane: What, out of interest, what main street do you live near, Sonoma Ranch? 4 5 C. Overhiser:Sonoma Ranch. We're just off from Sonoma Ranch. 6 7 Crane: Okay. 8 9 C. Overhiser:Calls Belleza. 10 11 D. Overhiser:May I speak? 12 13 Crane: Yes ma'am. 14 15 C. Overhiser:We would be greatly impacted by this. I mean you're talking about 16 building this 150 feet from our home when we have been told prior it was 17 going to be 500 or a minimum of 500 feet, now it's down to 150, this is 18 going to be in our backyard. And my husband and I ... I have to say this 19 because it's ... it's ... I have become a New Mexican. We lived in 20 California for 23 years. We lived across from the Pacific Ocean. 21 California's a beautiful state but we fell in love with New Mexico. It is a 22 land of enchantment and the Organ Mountains are exquisite. We see 23 hikers back there. We're not so greedy as to say nobody else should 24 enjoy this view, nobody else should you know avail themselves of the 25 beauty New Mexico offers, but there's a lot of other area there than to put 26 this 150 feet from our homes. And it's not only our home, this place is the 27 home to pyrrhuloxia and roadrunners and jackrabbits and desert cottontail. 28 1 have embraced what New Mexico has to offer so much, when I go out in 29 my backyard jackrabbits come into the arroyo because they know I'm 30 going to give them cold water. I feed the birds. I will spend a thousand 31 dollars a year feeding the birds back there because I just get so much 32 pleasure from them. It's just ... it's beautiful. It's a gorgeous area and 1 33 don't understand why this has to be placed so close to the residential 34 homes when there's so much land there. 35 36 Crane: We hear you ma'am. Okay. Thank you. Ms. Montana, do you have an 37 answer? 38 39 Montana: Yes Mr. Chair, Commissioners. The neighborhood organizations that 40 were notified were the Capistrano Estates and the Mission Espada North. 41 They are the ones that lie within the 500-foot radius. 42 43 Crane: Thank you. 44 45 C. Overhiser:Mr. Chairman. 46 35 1 Crane: Yes sir. 2 3 C. Overhiser:I don't know what the rules and regulations are but 1 would say just two 4 organizations? And having that be a public hearing is very very small 5 amount of people. 6 7 Crane: Well we are in another one now. 8 9 C. Overhiser:Yes, we are. And also is that I heard that you know the sign had been put 10 up and there'd been nothing. The first time I saw that sign was this 11 weekend. I don't know how long it's been there, but maybe I haven't seen 12 it. 13 14 Crane: Ms. Montana how long's the sign been up, any idea? 15 16 Montana: Yes. It was posted June 6th and the letters went out June 6th, and there 17 was a display add in the ... both the Bulletin and the Sun News 18 announcing the neighborhood meeting at the Dona Ana Community 19 College, you remember what dates? About a week or a week and a half 20 before that meeting. 21 22 Crane: That was the meeting to which the neighborhood associations were 23 invited. 24 25 Montana: Yes. That meeting was held May 28th. 26 27 Crane: So that was publicized by other means than simply getting in touch with 28 the neighborhood associations? 29 30 Montana: That's correct. 31 32 Crane: Okay. That help you sir? 33 34 D. Overhiser:May I speak? 35 36 Crane: Yes ma'am. 37 38 D. Overhiser:We were told. We signed up when we first heard about this and we're 39 very concerned to be on any e-mails, any correspondence through the 40 U.S. Postal Service, anything that transpired. Putting it in the newspaper, 41 1 mean to me that's ... 42 43 Crane: But I think Ms. Montana said there was a mailing. But did I understand 44 you right? 45 46 Montana: Yes, we mailed to owners of property within the 500-foot radius as well. 36 I Did you receive the letter? 2 3 C. Overhiser:For this meeting. 4 5 Montana: For this meeting. 6 7 D. Overhiser:For this meeting, yes. Not for the Dona Ana Community. 8 9 Montana: Yes. 10 11 D. Overhiser:Where you said there were no objections and that everybody was fine, 12 there were no e-mails. We also sent an e-mail with our objection, was that 13 never received? 14 15 Montana: Not ... 16 17 C. Overhiser:That was the other ... 18 19 Crane: Well let me point out that we're in the process of continuous public 20 hearings. Now this happens to be somewhat different format from the 21 original one, but here you are, saying your piece, so I think you're 22 covered. 23 24 D. Overhiser:Okay. 25 26 Crane: Now what gets done about it, we don't know yet. 27 28 D. Overhiser:Okay. 29 30 Crane: But we here you. 31 32 D. Overhiser:And Mr. Clifton I appreciate your request to find out about the noise and 33 everything else. I don't believe that was addressed in terms of the noise 34 level or anything. One of the beauties of New Mexico is the fact that it is 35 so serene, it is so peaceful, it is so tranquil, that right now we can go out in 36 our backyard and just you know admire nature. I don't think that was 37 addressed at all. 38 39 Crane: Thank you. 40 41 D. Overhiser:And we're not the only ones. People do walk around there on the cliff and 42 ... and I'd also like to know about the 500-foot buffer zone. What 43 happened to that? 44 45 Crane: I hope our neighbors will come and see us. I hope they're here now as 46 this is their opportunity. 37 1 2 D. Overhiser:Okay. Thank you. 3 4 Crane: Thank you. There were some other ... yes sir. 5 6 C. Overhiser:Yes, just to close. Is it ... with this code change you know there's a whole 7 lot of issues but this code change, I'm very concerned about making a 8 general code change that would allow things like antennas and so forth 9 just to flap up, 60-foot buildings and so forth. I would like to make sure 10 that we you know just don't let it run rampant, that we have some control 11 over it other than just within this code. And also, right now it sounds like 12 the only need is maybe two, three acres of that, but to go and get this 13 whole code change for 50 acres at this point seems like it's just kind of ... 14 okay we'll take care of it and then we can just build anything that we want, 15 whenever we want. Thanks. 16 17 Crane: Mr. Beard do you have a comment for Mr. Overhiser? 18 19 Beard: The issue before us is the road improvement isn't it? And that's it. 20 21 Crane: I don't it's ... no the issue before us is the zone change. 22 23 Beard: Huh? 24 25 Crane: It's the zone change. 26 27 Beard: I don't see in here where it says zone change. 28 29 Crane: Rezone approximately 50 acres to C-3C. 30 31 Beard: Oh, okay. Okay. I got you. 32 33 Crane: Mr. Beard apologizes. 34 35 Beard: Yes. 36 37 Crane: Okay, other members of the public. I saw some hands, the gentleman in 38 the grey shirt on the left. Please identify yourself. 39 40 Smith: My name is Timothy Smith. 41 42 Crane: And Mr. Smith do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 43 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 44 45 Smith: I do. 46 38 1 Crane: Go ahead please. 2 3 Smith: I own property on Tres Ninos which buts against the proposed lot. While 1 4 certainly appreciate the fact that we would have a public safety building so 5 close to this part of town for emergencies, I have a couple of concerns; 6 one is that the ... my primary concern is really that 150-foot buffer. 7 Although you contacted people within a 500-foot radius because they may 8 be affected by it, the fact that we're putting this building 150-feet away 9 from them seems to crunch that space down considerably in terms of how 10 much effect it's going to have. I'm primarily nervous about the idea of the 11 sound. We're going to be having fire trucks and police cars, so that 150- 12 foot buffer may be okay in terms of visuals, although I'm not sold on that, 13 but just the idea of the sound itself carrying over through all hours of the 14 night seems to be pretty close to where housing is. Since it is such a 15 large acreage I don't know why some of the proposed future spaces for 16 public buildings aren't utilized instead to create a buffer that is greater than 17 that 150-feet from, for example my backyard. I also am curious about 18 whether or not there will be a speed limit change, right now just about a 19 block away there's a hospital zone for Memorial Medical Center which 20 slows down traffic quite a bit, going up Lohman right as Lohman turns in 21 ... or crosses Sonoma Ranch. I assume that because this would be a 22 public safety building that there would be another speed zone then almost 23 immediately following that one which 1 think because Sonoma Ranch is 24 such a busy intersection kind of adds more stress to just people's daily 25 commute. 26 In general I also know that the trails aren't in discussion necessarily 27 but they were presented to us as homeowners as part of the future plan or 28 what that might look like and many of those trails butt up much closer to 29 backyards than even this public safety building does. So I'm very 30 concerned that the buffer is not enough for sound, that the traffic slowing 31 down is already problematic and will just get compounded, and again I'm 32 not really sure why we don't take advantage of that full 50 acreage and 33 just move the building deeper into that location. 34 35 Crane: Thank you sir. Any other member of the public? Gentleman in the blue 36 shirt, who I think is Mr. Binns. 37 38 E. Binns: Yes sir. 39 40 Crane: Mr. Binns do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give 41 is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 42 43 E. Binns: I do. 44 45 Crane: All right, please. 46 39 I E. Binns: I sat back there as a taxpayer observing what's going on as well as 2 monitoring the proposed project, and I have a couple of items of concern. 3 The first item is that I would like to send a message to the right people to 4 give our esteemed and my friend architect the privilege of designing a 5 building that looks like New Mexico. This thing doesn't look like New 6 Mexico building. It looks almost as bad as our bus depot over there which 7 I'm ashamed of. I'm responsible to design buildings that look like the 8 southwest and when I bring in design facilities why they always try to ... 9 put an arch over here, let's put some tile over here. I'd like to see them 10 give him the latitude to do what he's capable of doing, of designing a 11 building that looks like New Mexico and the southwest. I know he'd 12 appreciate that. And he can't say that but I can. The other one, we have 13 an item on the agenda here shortly that we'll get to sooner or later which if 14 all sit down and shut up and that's the arroyo subject. I'm extremely 15 disappointed that the negotiations for the leasing of this land did not 16 include the arroyo next to it, so that the city could set an example of how 17 to handle and how to develop and arroyo in a proper manner. But in 18 looking at the layout, they went close to the arroyo boundary but the city 19 did not incorporate the arroyo in their lease agreement and I'd like to see if 20 you can expand that so the city acquires the arroyo so that they can use 21 that as an example and understand how to maintain it and what kind of 22 costs might even be involved and it would be a good starting point for our 23 arroyo system to take advantage of inexpensive land and also to set an 24 example. So just a couple of points I'd like to make and one of them is the 25 arroyo subject and the other is let's get a building that we're proud of, 26 something that looks like New Mexico. Thank you. 27 28 Crane: Thank you Mr. Binns. Any other member of the public? Gentleman in the 29 red shirt. Let me interject while he gets here, that for those who are 30 uncomfortable, I'll be calling a break right after we deal with this matter. 31 Yes sir. 32 33 Chavira: Thank you Mr. Chairman. My name is Steve Chavira. 34 35 Crane: Mr. Chavira do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 36 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 37 38 Chavira: I do so affirm. 39 40 Crane: Go ahead please. 41 42 Chavira: Mr. Chairman thank you for giving me the opportunity to come up here 43 and speak. I am the chief executive officer of the Las Cruces Home 44 Builders Association and simply for the record all I would like to do is ... 1 45 see another opportunity where the city is looking at a policy change or 46 changes to codes or ordinances without much input from the constituency 40 I groups that are involved, whose life will make a difference here. In this 2 situation we have residents who are very close to the project and who 3 apparently have not had much input or any input at all in what is going on 4 and what will be ... they'll be forced to live with in very short order. I would 5 ... I would urge this Commission to recommend to the City Council and to 6 the city staff that issues like this be taken with every effort possible to try 7 to involve the constituency groups that are ... that the input is necessary 8 that is needed, and that we all work together to make sure that this 9 community is ... that we work to make sure that our quality of life is good 10 and strong, that ... for people that move to Las Cruces for the reasons that it they've cited, that they continue to like living here and we have a 12 community that is comfortable to live in. I would also agree with Mr. Binns 13 that if Mr. Mendez had the opportunity to design something that was more 14 in keeping with the architecture or the feel of our community, we probably 15 may not have that ... the picture that we see up there, but a more ... 16 different picture. But just for the record I'd like to say, let's involve 17 everybody, let's work harder to make sure that we get all the people 18 involved who need to be involved. And once you try to get them out there, 19 try again and make sure we get them. Thank you Chair. 20 21 Crane: Thank you sir. Gentleman in the blue shirt. 22 23 Cedebaca: Mr. Chairman. 24 25 Crane: Give us your name please sir. 26 27 Cedebaca: Richard Cedebaca. 28 29 Crane: Would you ... do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 30 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 31 32 Cedebaca: Ido. 33 34 Crane: Go ahead please. 35 36 Cedebaca: I just want to state for the record, I am a homeowner adjacent to this 37 property and I do walk these trails every day with my dog. My primary 38 concern is; one, the size of the rezoning parcel with such ill-defined uses. 39 1 observed earlier this evening the detail required for a chicken coop for 40 instance and with the city having no real defined plans within the next 1 41 heard 10 to 20 years, why request rezoning such a large parcel of land? 42 The intended uses I have a problem with, one being in the list of 43 acceptable uses is storage yards, antennas, and so on. And so my 44 primary concern with that is that yes they'll get the go ahead to build the 45 building and there's not adequate funding to build any more buildings but 46 there's adequate funding to put up a fence and make it a big storage yard 41 I or there's adequate funding to put up a big tower and you know make that 2 be the regional Commissioner. center for the City of Las Cruces. And 1 3 think such a large change and such a small meaning and with ill-defined 4 notices, I for one received just a notice for tonight. I hadn't received any 5 other previous notices. I did receive a notice from the BLM when the 6 application was made to them, but nothing from the city itself until this 7 notice for this evening. So I was unable to prepare my comments in 8 writing, but I wanted to make sure I stated it for the record here my 9 concerns. 10 11 Crane: Glad you came sir. Thank you. Anyone else? Lady in the white shirt. 12 You have two people, are you going to speak as one, or separately. 13 14 Ulibarri: He's going to listen. 15 16 Crane: Okay. 17 18 MALE: I'm just here for support. 19 20 Crane: Identify yourself ma'am. 21 22 Ulibarri: My name is Sabrina Ulibarri and I live at 1013 Calle Griega. It am too 23 sorry, I'm not very well prepared. 24 25 Crane: That's okay. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to 26 give is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 27 28 Ulibarri: I do. 29 30 Crane: Thank you. Go ahead. 31 32 Ulibarri: Okay I heard about this meeting tonight and I thought this was where 33 everyone was going to talk about yes or no, but looking at the presentation 34 it seems like it's already in the making to me, and I'm hoping that's not the 35 case, you know cause when I moved to this area it was nice and quiet, 36 that's why I moved there. I liked it. It was tranquil. It's like an old time 37 neighborhood, you have kids playing in the street, you have kids riding 38 their bikes, families running, and then with you bringing this with the noise 39 from the sirens, the lights, I'm concerned about you know Fre trucks flying 40 down the streets, kids in those streets. It's not a very well mix. And as far 41 as they made a very good presentation you know as far as the animals 42 there, it's quiet, it's serene, you can go out at night, and you're not 43 concerned about any noise, any lights. I would hope that they could find a 44 different place to put this. 45 46 Crane: Okay. Thank you. Any other member of the public? Then we'll close this 42 I to further discussion. Commissioners? Commissioner Clifton. 2 3 Clifton: This is certainly an interesting case, I guess the shoe's on the other foot. 1 4 see a lot of issues with this but at the end of the day the end users the fire 5 and police department and I really feel bad for them because quite frankly 6 they've been in negotiations with many people; the city, private developers 7 for a number of years to build this facility and it's nice to see it coming to 8 fruition, but I think given this information that we have it's really penalizing 9 them as the user of the facility. There was at one time it was going to be 10 about a mile east of here and then at another time it was going to be even 11 further than here. And I do support it, and I probably will support it, but I'm 12 just not comfortable with the level of work the city has done because 1 13 know if Mr. Binns for example came in with a proposal like this it would 14 probably get denied. There is no TIA, there is no descriptions of use, no 15 height issues, is there going to be a communications towel .? What's going 16 to occur there? How much noise, smoke? Are they going to improve ... is 17 the city going to improve Sonoma Ranch? There's a stretch of Sonoma 18 Ranch that's unimproved right there. This is going to increase traffic. It's 19 going to impact the neighborhood. And to me it's an equity issue and the 20 fact that it started off with no applicant signing an application, that's 21 concerning in itself although an executed lease would have been nice to 22 see to verity that authorization, but it's an equity issue for me and I don't 23 ... what's good for the goose is good for the gander. And I don't really see 24 a lot of equity here in this. Again I fully support this use. I think we need 25 it. I think the fire and police department need it. But I do think that the city 26 does need to do a better job in recognizing their needs and obtaining 27 those needs for them. 28 29 Crane: Commissioner Beard. 30 31 Beard: I agree. I would like to see how this 50 acre parcel fits in with the other 32 350 or I guess it'd be the other 300, but the total being 350. What is the 33 proposed use for the other 300 acres? How does that meld in 34 aesthetically, what not with the proposed 50 acres, and why would this 50 35 acres have to be at this particular location as opposed to somewhere else 36 in the 350 acres? 37 38 Crane: I'd like to comment that, yes that will be quite a radical change in the 39 environment for the residents because there will be sirens at all hours of 40 the day and night and no doubt communication antennas. I wonder 41 whether as somebody else mentioned that the 50 acre ... within that 50 42 acre area the police and fire building could not be moved somewhat 43 further up the future Camino Coyote Road that we have on our plan here, 44 just to get a little bit further away from the houses. Right now it seems to 45 be situated right on Sonoma Ranch. I realize that quick access to a major 46 highway is important, but I'm not sure that delay of getting vehicles out 43 I there would be very great if the exit from the area were just a little bit 2 further to the east in this 50-acre parcel. Any other comments? 3 Commissioner Ferrary. 4 5 Ferrary: When I went for a site visit this afternoon the ... there was a huge 6 mounding behind the homes that would run along what seemed like the 7 edge of the 50 acres. And I also wonder if even though it's ... would ... 8 has a possibility of being 60-foot high building, they're planning on no 9 more than two story and just part of the building, that I would be because 10 of the undulations of the land, if it would be almost down below their sight. 11 So I know a lot of people were objecting, but I'm wondering if actually this 12 won't be an impediment to their views. 13 14 Crane: Anyone else? While it seems to me at the moment we're here to address 15 the zoning change and nothing else, but presumably sometime in the 16 future we will get to address the exact design and location of property ... 17 Mr. Clifton's indicating no. What are ... what's your view? 18 19 Clifton: Mr. Chair, members of the Commission, we're providing a 20 recommendation to the Las Cruces City Council. From that point we're 21 done. The only time we would see this again before us, if there was a 22 modification to the improved zoning change or if there was a preliminary 23 plat that the P&Z would have to approve. 24 25 Crane: I see. Well do I hear a motion that this ... let me get the correct number 26 for it, application Z2875 be approved? Anybody want to move? Mr. 27 Clifton will ... 28 29 Clifton: Before we move forward I ... you know this is a fire and emergency issue 30 and it's a needed issue. It's a needed facility and we've ... it's been on the 31 table for several years. I don't know if the fire department, hate to put you 32 on the spot to Deputy Chief Mims, but if you're all prepared to address this 33 at all. I mean again I really feel like you've been put in a bad position here 34 and it would be nice to hear everybody in the room talk about the need 35 and is this an end all site, you know when will it happen, etc. 36 37 Crane: Mr. Mendez. 38 39 Mendez: Commissioner Crane, may I address the Commission? 40 41 Crane: Go ahead. 42 43 Mendez: Thank you very much. I assume that I'm still under oath. I would like to 44 move forward ... back to this drawing. As Commissioner Ferrary 45 mentioned this area is a bowl; there is a high hill here, there is a crest 46 here, there is a crest there, and there's another crest in this area. We 44 1 specifically located this part of the site to allow us and to allow the fire 2 department quick access onto Sonoma Ranch. Yes, Commissioner 3 Crane, the distance, the travel distance further in would not be long, but it 4 could in fact sometime be a matter of life and death. We don't know that. 5 So we chose to put it up here to allow quick and easy egress. The police 6 department is further back, again because they don't respond as quickly 7 as the fire department would have to. Again this area is ... this area in 8 here is in a bowl, an actual bowl that's out there that we're taking 9 advantage of. I would like to quickly comment on Mr. Binns comments. I 10 appreciate his comments and as a matter of fact that is precisely one of 11 the reasons why the city chose to pursue the entire 350 acres so that we 12 could capture as much of the north fork of the Las Cruces Arroyo as 13 possible and a portion of the south fork of the Las Cruces Arroyo, 14 specifically for the points that he raised in his comments. So I would like 15 to assure him that we tried to get as much of that land for the city to 16 manage it for flood control, for biological resources, for cultural resources, 17 as possible. So we did put a lot of thought into that. The area to the north 18 ... excuse me to the south of us is not accessible. We cannot get that 19 land under our R&PP lease act purposes or privileges. It is in private 20 hands. So we think we ... we're trying to blend as many needs and 21 functions as possible. I would also like to add, Commissioner Crane, that 22 this is not the end all, this is a step in the process to get us to ... get us the 23 necessary authority to construct on this property. We will be taking this to 24 the neighborhood specifically on the project. This is a zoning hearing. It 25 is not about the building yet. We will take that ... we, staff, myself, Cathy 26 Mathews, Deputy Chief Mims, Deputy Chief Martin, we will take this to the 27 citizens who live in that area for additional input and for a review of the 28 drawings and plans as they continue to develop. So again this ... this ... 29 part of the process has its own trajectory, separate and distinct from our 30 developing the project. Thank you very much Commissioner Crane. 31 32 Crane: Thank you sir. Commissioners. I would like to hear a motion that this be 33 approved. You don't have to vote for it but I have to have a motion. 34 35 Clifton: I'd like to make a motion that Case Z2875 submitted by the City of Las 36 Cruces be approved. And may I add a condition? 37 38 Crane: Yes, go ahead. 39 40 Clifton: The City of Las Cruces submit a traffic impact analysis prior to any plans 41 going to the construction industries division for review to be reviewed by 42 an outside the state ... I don't ... what I'm getting at is I don't know who 43 would review it cause it's a city application, but that would need to be 44 resolved. And I would also condition it as such, Sonoma Ranch 45 Boulevard be improved 100% adjacent to this site as there will be a traffic 46 increase. And three, additional public hearings be held with the 45 I stakeholders including all the residents within a 500-foot boundary. 2 3 Crane: Is there a second for that? 4 5 Beard: I second it. 6 7 Crane: Mr. Beard seconds. Let's do a roll call starting with Mr. Clifton. 8 9 Clifton: Aye. 10 11 Crane: Based on ...? 12 13 Clifton: Aye based on presentation by city staff, case packet information, and 14 various aspect of the city comprehensive plan as referenced in the case 15 material. 16 17 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Stowe. 18 19 Stowe: Aye based on discussions. 20 21 Crane: Ms. Ferrary. 22 23 Ferrary: Aye based on discussions, findings, and site visit. 24 25 Crane: Commissioner Beard. 26 27 Beard: Aye based on findings, conditions, and discussions and site visit. 28 29 Crane: And the Chair votes aye based on findings, discussions, and site visit. 30 The item passes five for, and none against. Thank you. It's now about 31 eight minutes now after eight, I'd like to call a break for ten minutes. We 32 will ... let's say we will reconvene at 8:20, we will continue with our 33 agenda. Thank you. 34 35 PER THE CHAIRMAN, TOOK A TEN-MINUTE RECESS. 36 37 5. Case PA-14-01: Review of and action on the Arroyo Management Plan, a 38 citywide policy document prepared and presented by the City of Las Cruces 39 Community Development Department. 40 41 Crane: It's 8:23, ladies and gentlemen we'll reconvene. We're now on case PA- 42 14-01, review of and action on the Arroyo Management Plan. Ms. McCall, 43 you have the floor. 44 45 McCall: Thank you. Do I ... I don't need to do the swearing in or anything? 46 46 I Crane: Oh. 2 3 McCall: Am I supposed to do that? 4 5 Crane: It can't do any harm. Let's do it or we will have to watch you repeat this. 6 Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth 7 and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 8 9 McCall: I do. 10 11 Crane: Go ahead please. 12 13 McCall: Thank you. This is Case PA-14-01, a review and action on the Arroyo 14 Management Plan. You would be making a recommendation or not 15 making a recommendation to the City Council for adoption. I was here a 16 month ago for the Planning and Zoning work session and at that time 1 17 went through the contents of the plan and during the discussion we talked 18 about some ... the major things we talked about; definition of detention 19 and retention ponds and the differences between the two, some concerns 20 about utilities in the arroyos, and some ... how to address privately owned 21 arroyos and how the arroyo plan would impact private property owners. 22 And then I also went over public input. And so this time I want to focus 23 specifically on just some revisions to the plan and your concerns, and 24 addressing some of the public input. So I'll go very quickly through the 25 contents of the plan just as a review and for those in the audience who 26 were not at the work session. The plan has six chapters, introduction, 27 definitions, regional characterization which is like a snapshot or a portrait 28 of the area, and then description and discussion of some of the issues and 29 problems that we're facing right now and some possible ways that they 30 can be addressed. The goals and policies, and then administration and 31 implementation which talks about how we actually carry out the policies 32 and the plan, and then appendices. 33 This is the study area. One of the things I did in the revision 34 following the work session was change the map, so this is slightly 35 different, it includes the Organ Mountain Desert Peaks National Monument 36 boundaries and just has clearer labeling and that sort of thing. 37 The purpose of the plan as we've discussed is primarily flood 38 control and improved drainage functions and to protect arroyos in their 39 natural state to the greatest extent possible and in doing so we hope that 40 we can protect native vegetation and wildlife habitat and protect private 41 property from flood damage, address utility installation, and improve 42 stormwater quality, and increase protected open space, and perhaps add 43 trails and trail connectivity and other recreational opportunities. 44 The regional characterization chapter just physically describes our 45 area and then there is a discussion of the flood control dams and the 46 current stormwater management and drainage practices that the city 47 1 operates under. Utilities and how they're installed and maintained in the 2 arroyos, and then what our current parks and open space inventory is as it 3 relates to the arroyos. 4 The issues and challenges that we are dealing with include some 5 related to development, watershed issues, addressing flood control and 6 stormwater management at a watershed level, a more regional level, and 7 then addressing specifically stormwater management, erosion, 8 sedimentation, and slopes, that sort of thing through design standards. 9 Again utilities and infrastructure. There is a section on the dam ... or the 10 flood control dams and we discussed last time the reality that the City of 11 Las Cruces really has very little to do with control of the dams, they're 12 governed by larger entities, although we are a participating partner. And 13 so later on I'll discuss how that was addressed in the revision of the plan. 14 Weather and climate variability and how that is likely to impact 15 thunderstorms and flood ... floods in the area. Vegetation and habitat, 16 wildlife, parks and open space, and the economy and quality of life. 17 Issues and challenges section pretty much mirrors the regional 18 characterization section. And then the goals, policies, and actions 19 address the issues and challenges that are discussed in the previous 20 chapter. 21 The land use section has three goals, they're primarily intended to 22 look at big picture situations regarding land use, not necessarily focused 23 problems that may be addressed by design standards. The environment 24 originally in the March 1st draft had one goal and it said protect and 25 maintain natural habitat and wildlife connectivity within arroyo systems to 26 the greatest extent possible and mitigate damage that may result from 27 development. And that was divided into two goals so that vegetation and 28 wildlife could be addressed individually. 29 Community facilities didn't change. This primarily addresses 30 passive recreation and trails. And utility and stormwater management is 31 directed towards sound engineering standards and minimizing soil and 32 slope instability, erosion, and addressing the utility installation and 33 maintenance. 34 Implementation primarily involves amending chapter 32 which is the 35 design standards and other related codes to reflect the plan policies. And 36 then a lot of it really has to do with securing funding for, in a minute I'll 37 describe the arroyo characterization model, and funding to update the 38 storm drain master plan which was done in 2006. And then because 39 vegetation play such a large part in habitat, wildlife, and also in 40 characterizing the arroyos and where the boundaries of the arroyos go, 41 there would have to be some work done to map vegetation outside the 42 100 year flood zones and map wildlife corridors. 43 1 talked about the arroyo characterization model and that is I think 44 the most important part of this plan or the most important thing that this 45 plan suggests. There's currently a hydrology model in use when doing 46 drainage studies and other types of data analyses regarding flood control 48 I and it is based on the Army Corps of Engineers model, HEC, HMS, and 2 RAS stands for hydrologic engineering center which is the Army Corps of 3 Engineers database and center for this sort of information. Hydrologic 4 modeling system which is designed to simulate hydrologic processes of 5 watersheds, and then RAS is river analysis system which looks at flow 6 rates, sedimentation transport, and that kind of thing. So, the model would 7 start with that but because it would be used for a lot of other things, it 8 would also include data related to the topography of the arroyos and 9 surrounding terrain, drainage areas on a larger scale, a watershed level, 10 soils, vegetation, presence of wildlife, other development in the area or 11 other open spaces in the area, and existing infrastructure and land uses. 12 The purpose of the model in addition to being used for drainage studies 13 and other analyses related to flood control, would be to determine the 14 buffers and as I described in the work sessions, the plan does propose a 15 buffer beyond the 100-year flood zone within which there would be no 16 development. It could possibly be used for open space or I guess you 17 could call it a lower level of development, for example parking lots, or 18 things of that nature that don't necessarily involve a larger amount of 19 infrastructure. And then the characterization model more or less 20 describes the arroyo and this would be useful for example in the case we 21 just heard about the safety complex, how the arroyos could be 22 incorporated into developments, into park systems. There would be a lot 23 of different references or uses for it. The thing I want to say about the 24 buffer, I think in the earlier draft of the plan it wasn't really clear where the 25 buffers would be applied or how they would be applied. And so I do want 26 to state that part of the reason for the arroyo characterization model is that 27 it would tell us which arroyos would require a buffer, and if it did require a 28 buffer how wide it might need to be. The ... I hope that the language and 29 the revision make ... clears that up a little bit. It isn't intended to be a 30 blanket buffer that all arroyos would have a certain distance within which 31 there would be no development. It would just identify places on any given 32 arroyo where it may be suitable due to erosion factors or other things of 33 that nature. 34 And then the appendices just provide a lot of background 35 information. Certainly most of it is available other places, but it's kind of a 36 consolidated place where people can go to get information. And a lot of 37 this information is also referenced in the body of the plan where there is 38 the source and the website noted where people can learn more. And then 39 from last month to this month I did not have any additional stakeholder or 40 public meetings. I did receive quite a few e-mails and those are included 41 in your packet. And then primarily the public input is ... I have to find my 42 notes, sorry. There were concerns about building too close to the arroyos, 43 people thought it was very important to educate residents, developers, 44 and planners etc. on planned policies and what it might imply for private 45 property owners. Develop more incentives and less regulations, make it 46 more of a positive thing, a carrot rather than a club sort of thing. Analyze 49 I policies across city departments, this is something that does happen from 2 time to time. There are policies in certain plans that may not be in other 3 plans, in other departments, or ordinances that affect one department and 4 one discipline but not necessarily others. 5 Green infrastructure and low impact development were brought up 6 quite a bit as ways to reduce the amount of runoff that actually enters the 7 arroyo, for example the use of rain barrels or cisterns on the property. 8 Tighten, review, and enforcement of current regulations. Plan policies 9 should only address those arroyos which are in public ownership because 10 private landowners already bought the property under certain assumptions 11 and this is certainly true. I think this is something that ... that is a concern 12 whenever there ... our ordinances are updated and so we would have to 13 look at how this would impact private property owners and specifically 14 property owners who have ... who own portions of arroyos. And then 15 along with that the suggestion was made to create buffers for arroyos that 16 have not yet been developed and of course we can't really make buffers 17 for arroyos that have been developed or have development immediately 18 adjacent to them, but it sort of goes hand-in-hand with the idea that it 19 would impact arroyos that are in public ownership rather than private 20 ownership. And then there was the sentiment that current regulations 21 already address the issues raised in the plan and so the arroyo plan isn't 22 needed. And another related thing has to do with funding and a financial 23 investment. Arroyos that are privately owned as part of development, the 24 landowner, the property owner, has the right to build as they've been 25 expected to be able to do so. So the argument was made that if the city 26 wants to manage the arroyos in a certain way then they should acquire 27 those arroyos by whatever means necessary, if it's not conveyed by the 28 BLM or the State Land Office, then the land should be purchased by the 29 city. And then hand-in-hand with that again is acquiring and maintaining 30 the arroyos would also be expensive and Commissioner Clifton brought 31 this up last time that the city does have to anticipate funding and how it 32 would be acquired for maintenance. 33 And as I said earlier the flood control dams are an issue that is 34 really larger than the city, so the city is a partner and would certainly be 35 involved in support any regional storm water management effort, but I did 36 revise the text a little bit and the goals and policies to get rid of the 37 implication that the city would be taking this on or would be responsible for 38 upgrade of the flood control dams. 39 The concerns primarily related to environment have to do with 40 protecting vegetation and wildlife habitat, the sentiment that those areas 41 should be mapped and that in determining buffers habitat specialist should 42 be brought in as part of the team. On the maps that various people filled 43 out on our map exercise at our public meetings, they pointed out sites of 44 interest, sites that they felt should be protected, areas where trails are 45 already in existence and where people walk a lot, places where there's a 46 lot of illegal dumping already. And the notion that the arroyo boundaries 50 I should not be specifically related or identified by the 100-year flood zone, 2 but that it should be looked at on a larger scale and include stands of 3 native vegetation which indicate a history of flooding or water flow in those 4 areas even though it may not be in the flood zone boundary. And 5 community facilities input primarily relates to parks and ... trails following 6 the MPO trail plan and there was a comment that the plan should focus 7 primarily on flood control and minimize amenities since those are 8 addressed in the trail plan; the parks and rec. master plan and the MPO 9 trail pain. Oh and I should add also there were comments about putting 10 trails directly behind private property and in the comments I received 11 distances weren't really discussed, so that would be another thing I think 12 for further public input; I was just thinking about this during the previous 13 case and in the abstract I thought 25 feet might be appropriate, but 1 14 measured and that isn't even as far as this distance of where you are, and 15 I'm not really sure that private property owners would feel comfortable with 16 that distance, so that is something to be determined. 17 And then utilities and stormwater management primarily concerning 18 flood control techniques and having a more comprehensive hydrologic 19 analysis of the East Mesa which goes back to the arroyo characterization 20 model and addressing utilities in the arroyos and ways to minimize erosion 21 for that ... for those. There was also a discussion about the arroyos within 22 the city limits or the developed areas maybe using, like not necessarily 23 leaving those in a natural state but a naturalistic state; using pervious 24 concrete or other structures that would help modify the flow into the 25 arroyos while maintaining a naturalistic appearance. And there did seem 26 to be some confusion at public meetings about utilities and how they 27 operate and why they're in the arroyos so I think that calls for just greater 28 education and awareness. 29 And then the idea of revegetation following construction which is a 30 very difficult thing to do, I ... in reading the federal permits I discovered 31 that there is already a regulation on the books that the construction 32 company or the developer or whoever is responsible for the construction 33 has three years to revegetate to 70% of what the original vegetation was. 34 And so that is something that's already required, it isn't anything that the 35 arroyo plan is calling for that's new. 36 As a review, the other governmental entities have looked at the 37 plan, the City of Las Cruces, the Flood Commission, the Land Office, the 38 BILK Bureau of Reclamation and Elephant Butte, and then some of the 39 comments that were made at the work session last month, the lack of data 40 behind the statements regarding quality of life and economic development, 41 and the lack of data to substantiate climate change issues. The sense 42 that the process is being rushed. And there was some confusion about or 43 concern about how private property owners would have to follow the plan 44 as I mentioned earlier and that is something that I hope is clarified to some 45 extent, but possibly could use some further clarification. FEMA 46 boundaries that reference to the flood zones and the proposed flood 51 I zones have been removed from the plan because there was some 2 concern about discussing these issues since the city does not have 3 authority over them. And then as I said concerns about utilities in the 4 arroyos and erosion problems. Oh, I got ahead of myself. So are the 5 things that I primarily changed in the plan, they aren't radical changes, but 6 1 hope that the language was modified to an extent that it clarifies a lot of 7 the confusion and adds information that was asked for. I did add data to 8 support the quality of life issue including reports and research on indirect 9 benefits of open space, but can't necessarily be quantified in dollars. And 10 1 kind of beefed up the information regarding vegetation and vegetative I t species in the regional characterization. So, with that I'll close and open it 12 up for discussion. Your options tonight would be to vote to recommend to 13 the City Council that the plan be adopted, to vote no and not recommend 14 adoption to the City Council; vote yes with conditions which could include 15 further revisions in the plan or other actions or modifications that you think 16 are appropriate; or vote to postpone the recommendation and I would 17 welcome further direction. Thank you. 18 19 Crane: Thank you Ms. McCall. Any Commissioner have questions for Ms. 20 McCall? Commissioner Ferrary. 21 22 Ferrary: Well I don't have a question I just want to say that I think after the last 23 work session you went back and accommodated all of the different 24 suggestions and this is I think just a wonderful plan and you should be 25 commended on it. It's very good. 26 27 McCall: Thank you. 28 29 Crane: Mr. Clifton. 30 31 Clifton: Mr. Chair, Carol, you did in fact address a lot of the comments that I had, 32 thank you. I do still have some specific questions or concerns rather; the 33 first being what is the buffer distance going to be? 34 35 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Clifton. I don't know. That would depend on the 36 characterization model and then the characterization of each individual 37 arroyo. And it may even be ... I'll go back to the map ... it's very possible 38 that different sections of the same arroyo would have different buffers. It 39 would depend on surrounding existing development, proposed 40 development that's already on the books and is already vested so it would 41 follow the regulations that it was adopted under. It would depend on 42 upstream flows; one of the recommendations that was made by the 43 engineering stakeholders group is that the current hydrology model that's 44 in use stops at the flood control dams, but the recommendation was made 45 as part of the update and expansion of the model to go up stream which 46 would give us more data related to how upstream flows would impact 52 1 development and adds to the idea of looking at it more on a regional 2 scale. So, it would just depend. 3 4 Clifton: So I'm trying to understand at what point a process of a development 5 application will this issue come up. I mean the plans can go to City 6 Council presumably, presumably to the August meeting and at that point if 7 it were to be adopted then you can in turn start codifying it so to speak and 8 filtering it into the appropriate codes via ordinance, but during that time if 9 development applications or even after that time when development 10 applications come in, what's going to happen to them when they go 11 through the grinder mill here at the city. Are they going to get held up 12 because they are adjacent to an arroyo and you have to run the 13 characterization model? You don't quite know yet what the buffer's going 14 to be. Are you going to wait till it's codified in the design standards? And 15 that leads into the next question, do you guys ... does staff have a handle 16 on what portions of this plan will be codified and where will they be placed 17 in the various ordinances throughout the city? 18 19 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Clifton, if and when the arroyo plan is adopted 20 regardless of anything else, any development proposal that comes in 21 would fall under purview of the current regulations until those regulations 22 are amended. There is a committee already, an interdepartmental 23 committee working on updating and revising the design standards to 24 address road crossings, landscape standards, I believe there will be a 25 section added to chapter 32 of the Municipal Code on arroyos rather than 26 incorporating the various aspects like road crossing or erosion control into 27 those smaller sections of the chapter. So, until the design standards are 28 updated, any development proposal that comes in would follow the current 29 design standards. The model will take some time because as I said first of 30 all we have to find funding for it and to be honest I don't know how long a 31 study of this type would take. I would think that it would be approximately 32 equivalent to the time it took to do the storm drain master plan in 2006 and 33 1 honestly don't know how long that was, but I could foresee it taking a 34 year. 35 36 Clifton: So with that said, this is a policy document much like the comprehensive 37 plan and the concern I have is getting a case recommendation from staff 38 under the findings of fact that utilizes aspect of a comprehensive plan of 39 policy document that plays into a recommendation of an application, 40 whether it's zoning or subdivision, and the concern I have is this will be on 41 a shelf, utilized to formulate that recommendation without it being codified 42 and that's a concern. I mean it's an awfully grey area and I think it would 43 be awfully uncomfortable for members of the community that invest money 44 in developments and real estate. 45 46 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Clifton, I completely understand your concern. 1 53 I do the comprehensive plan reviews for the development proposals and it's 2 been my experience, I can't say this for sure with current planning, but in 3 the absence of a regulation then plan policy is referred to. So, if the 4 situation arises in which it's not already addressed by code, then staff and 5 appointed and elected officials would have to follow some sort of guidance 6 and so it would be a policy. But, it's been my experience that if there's a 7 code in place then that's what it would follow even though it may run 8 counter to what the policy says. And I guess I would add to that the 9 situation that anybody would be in would be the same whether it's the 10 comprehensive plan, or the storm drain master plan, or the stormwater 11 management plan, the parks and rec. master plan, everybody faces the 12 same situation when there's a proposal of any kind that goes for approval. 13 If it's not already on the books they would run into that problem regardless 14 of what plan it is, it's not just the arroyo plan. 15 16 Clifton: And I think that's what makes me uncomfortable. I think it's a slippery 17 slope. You know if it's not being addressed ... a code is the law. A policy 18 is an opinion. You know you make the policy an ordinance and it's law. 19 And until so if an individual comes in to develop a project, you know what 20 assurances do they have that it's not going to be a taking ... I think it's 21 really creating a legal issue for the city and an uncomfortable position for 22 the Planning and Zoning Commission in the future if that were to occur. 23 I'm not saying it will occur, I don't even know if it will or it may, but I think in 24 this room we've all seen a little bit of everything so it wouldn't surprise me. 25 Thank you. 26 27 Crane: Any other Commissioner have any questions? Commissioner Ferrary. 28 29 Ferrary: Well my understanding is that this is a management plan and it's in the 30 process of being adopted, and as you've explained that if something 31 happens until this is codified then it would just be a suggestion and tried to 32 be followed as a model and what we're working towards. So, I think this is 33 a good thing to go ahead and approve. 34 35 Crane: Thank you. Anyone else? Thank you Carol. So, Commissioners may 1 36 have a ... 37 38 Beard: You might have some public input. 39 40 Crane: Quite right Commissioner Beard. Input from the public. There were three 41 people I believe at the beginning of the meeting indicated they had ... they 42 wanted to address this. I notice those people still here. Mr. Binns or have 43 you said it all? You want to come up. Anybody else so I can get some 44 idea of how many? Okay. Mr. Beard, our secretary will give you three 45 minutes apiece, is that satisfactory? Can you do that? 46 54 I E. Binns: I think I'm here. I swear to tell the truth. 2 3 Crane: Okay. I didn't swear you in yet, did I? 4 5 E. Binns: Let me turn my hearing aid up a little louder. 6 7 Crane: I didn't ... I didn't swear you in earlier? 8 9 Baum: Yes. 10 11 Crane: Idid? 12 13 Baum: Yes you did. 14 15 Crane: You're still sworn in. 16 17 E. Binns: Good. 18 19 Crane: Go ahead. 20 21 E. Binns: First of all Carol did a fantastic job of trying to analyze the various aspect 22 of this arroyo ordinance. Her analysis has generated more questions than 23 answers, unfortunately, and I hate to see something come along like 24 Obamacare that's on four pages that passed the first go around and then 25 700 pages that are written after the fact that nobody knows what they say 26 until someone tries to make them work. And I don't want to see 27 something going that direction cause this is a very complicated issue. And 28 the Planning and Zoning Commission has an obligation to analyze these 29 types of things from several levels. And probably the most important level 30 is safety and welfare of the community. This is something that has not 31 been addressed in all of these studies. The arroyo system that may go in 32 has got to have some means of protecting the public there and keeping it 33 in a safe order. The fire department's got to have access to these things 34 in some form or fashion. The police department's got to have access, and 35 they've got to have personnel to handle this additional load of this public 36 property. And at this time those entities are stressed financially taking 37 care of the streets and the normal public without an additional burden of 38 trying to take care of the safety in miles and miles of arroyos. 39 In addition to the safety and the welfare, we have an issue of the 40 maintenance of them, i.e. taking care of the trash issues. I have real 41 estate scattered in numbers of places around the town and I have codes 42 enforcement contact me and says, Eddie you got a truckload of trash over 43 here so-and-so, you need to go clean it up. Well the same thing's going to 44 happen in arroyos that end up in this and there's going to be trash 45 dumped and it's going to be a trash maintenance problem that takes 46 place. The park system isn't in any position to take on additional park 55 I financial loading in taking care of trails and such here, so you've got a 2 problem from the parks standpoint of them taking care of it. 3 The second major issue on this thing is the funding of it, because 4 this type of program is heavily city oriented. The staff identified that there 5 was over 6,000 parcels in arroyos that are owned by 6,000 different 6 individuals and in trying to acquire those properties it's going to be a major 7 problem to find the financial resources to buy the land, because it is 8 private land. A lot of people think the arroyos public, but they're not, 9 they're on the tax rolls. My own real estate on the tax rolls that has 10 arroyos going through it has the same tax value as the piece of land on 11 top of the hill, so that the value of the real estate is a major issue. The city 12 did a series of appraisals of real estate to acquire land and in those 13 appraisals that value of the land adjacent to the arroyos was the same as 14 the land there, so value's a big problem. 15 16 Crane: Are you about through sir? 17 18 E. Binns: I'm getting a little closer. 19 20 Crane: Please get a lot closer. 21 22 E. Binns: Okay. We'll try to push it on up a little bit. The ... your maintenance, your 23 money, and ... I can foresee and I have the fear that the arroyo issue in a 24 future date will be placed on a developer to dedicate the land in order for 25 him to have the privilege of developing the land adjacent to it. This is what 26 happened with parks. This is what happened with major arterials through 27 the years, that if a developer wanted to develop, then he was squeezed 28 and forced to do that, and I can see this moving in that direction at some 29 future date and that's not a reasonable property right for the city to take 30 away from people. 31 At this time there are so many unanswered questions that 1 would 32 be very hard pressed to see this thing issued to recommend to the city 33 without some answers coming in. The boundaries of the flood control 34 require a survey and the survey is done by taking the cross section of the 35 arroyo to calculate the volume flow and then identify the outside 36 boundaries. This is a very complicated effect and to identify the 100-year 37 flood, to the 500-year flood or whatever, it's going to take extensive 38 surveys to identify the real estate that you're speaking of and are going to 39 try to acquire. So that's a major problem. FEMA has maps but they 40 move, arroyos move, arroyos may be at one place this year and next year 41 they may be at the other side, so that they do move around. They're not 42 static. So it does become a major problem in trying to identify and from a 43 property right standpoint an individual has a responsibility to take the 44 water in one side of his property and take it out the other side of his 45 property. And what he does in between if he channelizes or whatever he 46 has a property right and he has the privilege to do whatever he feels is his 56 I right to do. So this is something that I can see is being taking away from 2 the property owner, it's moving in that direction, and I'd like a lot more 3 questions answered, a lot more studies done before this thing moves 4 forward. Thank you. 5 6 Crane: Thank you. Who's next? The gentleman in the red shirt. Please identify 7 yourself sir. 8 9 Moscato: John Moscato. Good evening Commissioners. 10 11 Crane: Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth 12 and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 13 14 Moscato: Yes. 15 16 Crane: Go ahead please. 17 18 Moscato: Thank you. I'd like to suggest that the first test that the Commission 19 should impose on a proposal like this is whether it's really necessary. And 20 if you look at what's currently on the books in terms of drainage 21 requirements, subdivision, construction requirements, there is plenty on 22 the books already. I'm a developer. I was at a pre-submittal meeting with 23 city staff this morning for instance and our engineer in connection with a 24 project developing totally flat land, no arroyo involved at all, had to present 25 a drainage plan the size of the Las Cruces telephone book. It's incredible 26 if you haven't seen what's required of developers already to develop their 27 property with respect to drainage, 1 think you'd be surprised to see the 28 burdens and the hurdles that we have to overcome already, but even if 29 you were to think that some kind of arroyo plan is needed, I think you 30 should ask yourself is one of this magnitude really needed. This has 75 31 separate policy recommendations, it has 57 separate actions 32 recommended. I think that's a prescription for over regulation which is 33 simply going to stifle economic development. It's going to raise cost of 34 development. It's going to raise the cost to the city to manage to 35 supervise, to impose its various mandates in connection with all these 36 policies and all these proposed actions. As Commissioner Clifton 37 mentioned, this is a classic slippery slope. We're going to go from policy 38 to regulations to extra costs, you know just one last example, there's a 39 proposal here to try to incentivize single loaded streets along arroyos, 40 well, I'm not sure how you can successfully incentivize a recommendation 41 which would effectively double the cost of development. If you're only 42 developing one side of the street, you have half the lots to develop, but 43 you have the same costs of infrastructure. So I think on so many levels 44 this is unneeded. If anything is needed it's certainly not of this magnitude. 45 Thank you. 46 57 I Crane: Thank you sir. Someone else? Please tell us who you are. 2 3 Bower: Max Bower. Red Mesa Development and also ... 4 5 Crane: Mr. Bower do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give 6 is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 7 8 Bower: Yes. 9 10 Crane: Go ahead please. 11 12 Bower: Just to really reiterate what John just said, the proposed ordinance in its 13 current form, the preliminaries, the full potential of arroyos as a community 14 asset was thrown around a lot in there and the plan admittedly discloses 15 that it is unable to quantify the value of this community asset and I have 16 the answer right here, if you want to put it in there. The proposed plan as 17 John pointed out, specifically the buffers will have a very ... it'll have a 18 very negative impact on private property affected by the ordinance. And 19 example, as he's saying, if you have a piece of private property, an arroyo 20 runs through some of it or half of it, again based on tonight's presentation 21 and discussion the proposed buffer of 25 feet is inadequate, it's probably 22 grossly inadequate, in some cases it essentially just doubled the cost of 23 infrastructure because now you have an arroyo, it's in the private land, you 24 create a buffer, you've still got to get a road through there. Half the land is 25 now essentially off the market and ... not to mention you just trampled the 26 private property owners rights pretty significantly right there. 27 But ... but also from just another angle to this is probably the 28 benefit to the city from a revenue standpoint. The unintended 29 consequence of this is that you're essentially removing property from the 30 market so that the city at some later date can't benefit from revenue from 31 impact fees, building permits, so on and so forth, you're actually strangling 32 revenue to the city by going with something like this. But I do appreciate 33 the time that staffs put in for it. That's not an easy subject to tackle and 34 you know we all want to ... we all want a beautiful community I do 35 commend them for where they're going with it, but there's just a lot of 36 pitfalls that need to be addressed before I believe it should go any further. 37 Thank you. 38 39 Crane: Thank you Mr. Bower. Gentleman in the red shirt that we've heard from 40 before but please remind us of your name. 41 42 Chavira: Yes, Mr. Chairman, my name is Steve Chavira. 43 44 Crane: You're still sworn in, okay. 45 46 Chavira: Yes sir. Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission 58 1 1 would thank you again for giving me this opportunity to speak to you. 1 2 do ... I would like to congratulate Carol on a great job putting the 3 presentation together. She's been very fastidious in looking at all the 4 questions and all the issues and meeting with the groups, and I think she's 5 probably done the best job I've seen of anybody bringing the constituent 6 groups together and to meet on this policy issue. I would like to raise a 7 couple of quick points, but first of all I have a point of order that I would 8 like to just bring up for the record. I'm not sure why you decided to time 9 the public input on this part of the session when you didn't do it for the rest 10 of the evening. I think this is a much more important issue than you know 11 whether we're bringing chickens to the neighborhood or not and I really 12 don't ... I think we probably could've had less talk on chickens, a little 13 more talk from Mr. Binns, but that's obviously your decision Mr. Chairman. 14 15 Crane: We're all wiser after the event. Yeah. 16 17 Chavira: Right. I would like to say that ... to Commissioner Ferrary's point you 18 know it's a great plan and it's a policy plan and you know approve it as ... 19 push it forward and help facilitate more discussion. I would say not to 20 approve it just for the sake of approving it. This is ... this is a policy 21 discussion that's right, but as you know that when things start getting 22 approved and start pushing forward they turn into ... they turn into laws, 23 they turn into ordinances, they turn into changes that affect a whole lot of 24 things down the road. I urge you to open this up, let's have more 25 discussion. As Carol said, that it would take a long time to really start to 26 quantify exactly what's going to be going into this when we start to really 27 delve into it and look at it. I'd love to see Carol's first day when she 28 decided to tackle this project and all those sleepless nights I'm sure she 29 had looking at the breadth and the scope of this project and looking at 30 what is all involved here. And I'm sure she realizes that those days are 31 not over, especially depending on what goes on here today. Let's take the 32 time to work this plan. Let's look at it. Let's not push it forward to Council 33 and start the ball rolling or start the water flowing as it is, no pun intended, 34 but let's look at it and let's really figure out what is going to be involved in 35 here. We do have an economic impact for our community, for our ... for 36 the business community, our city in general, and looking at this policy is 37 important that we take the time and be as equally fastidious as Carol has 38 been to make sure that we look at it all from ... from all areas of the 39 spectrum. That's my recommendation. I think that I would want to mirror 40 the comments that Mr. Moscato, Mr. Binns, and Mr. Bower have made, 41 those are not only comments of three people but of a large group of 42 people that they represent. Take the time. 43 44 Crane: Thank you sir. I think we've heard from four fifths of the people and the 45 gentleman in the grey shirt is going to make it unanimous. And you are? 46 59 I D. Binns: Hi, I'm David Binns. Binns Limited (inaudible). 2 3 Crane: Mr. Binns do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give 4 is the truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of law? 5 6 D. Binns: Yes I do. 7 8 Crane: Go ahead sir. 9 10 D. Binns: It's kind of interesting that I don't see anybody in the audience that's here 11 to affirm this decision. Everyone here is pretty much against it and there's 12 a reason why. There's too much grey area. The buffer zones are not 13 described here. If this passed on to the city, the city's going to say okay 14 here's the buffer zone and they're going to put a number up there or 15 they're just going to do it case by case according to however they want. 16 There's no studies here that says okay this buffer zone is going to be 17 here, here, and here, and I think we need to evaluate this plan a lot more. 18 One of the things Carol was talking about putting parking lots you know for 19 low density. Parking lots don't work in arroyos. That's kind of against 20 what she was after, the natural aesthetics of the plan. Something else to 21 take into consideration, basically they're trying to keep channelization 22 away from this plan. The Rio Grande River was channelized. It used to 23 meander all up and down the valley. It was channelized for a reason, so 24 people could put farms in, people could put development in. The same 25 thing with arroyos, they can be channelized in a certain manner that the 26 wildlife can still run up and down, we have the aesthetics of an arroyo, but 27 we don't have to let it meander you know one quarter mile one way, on 28 quarter mile the other way, it can be channelized in a smart way but we 29 don't need 400 or 500 foot buffer zones in places. I think when they start 30 looking at different arroyos you're going to have a buffer zone that they 31 might want for 500 feet which is getting pretty ridiculous on a real estate. 32 If the city wants to buy that 500 feet, well that's great, but they don't have 33 the money to do it right now, something to keep in mind. It gets back into 34 an economic portion of the city what they can afford, what they can't afford 35 on private land. And again you're taking the rights of property owners in 36 your own hands right now. And this is something that's going to affect me 37 and my children with different lands all over the city. You guys will be 38 down the road, move away, what not and I'm going to have to deal with 39 this, my children will have to deal with this with different lands all around 40 the city. So I would like to recommend if you could not to pass this and 41 not to let it go forward anymore. Thank you. 42 43 Crane: Thank you Mr. Binns. We've heard from everybody. So, Commissioners? 44 Ms. Ferrary, let's let you go and then Mr. Clifton. 45 46 Ferrary: Thank you Commissioner Crane. I disagree with all of the naysayers. 1 60 I think this is a typical response that we have too much regulation, that 2 these are going to cause us all kinds of problems, we need more 3 discussion. I think the discussion has been at ad nauseam and there will 4 still be more discussion when the City Council goes to approve it. I think 5 there has been great compromise with a lot of the suggestions and 6 improvements to the plan. These are planning measures that will provide 7 a future for Las Cruces to have the protections from the damages by 8 arroyos and not being able to Flow. And it will also provide a vision for our 9 community and that will provide you know how Las Cruces will grow in a 10 really great way. 11 12 Crane: Thank you. Commissioner Clifton. 13 14 Clifton: Thank you Mr. Chair. First of all thank you Mr. Moscato, I have to echo 15 your comments. And at last month's meeting I followed along that same 16 line, that you know what point does the regulation and over regulation stop 17 and that is the upmost concern especially considering the fact that we 18 don't know what this is going to look like and I still believe it's going to hold 19 up projects and lock up land until it's decided how the city will treat that 20 once this is adopted, if it's adopted. And a question to Carol, not to keep 21 beating this to death, but you have a captive audience right now, is there 22 something you could possibly do to set up something that we know about, 23 you have Mr. Binns, Mr. Moscato here, Mr. Chavira. You've had multiple 24 meetings but it still sounds like ... I don't know if the two sides will ever 25 agree but at least come back to us with something that shows that there 26 were some negotiations and this is as far as we can get. And I'm not 27 getting that and that's really what I was requesting last month and it 28 doesn't appear that that's happened and you've got them here tonight and 29 maybe you can work something out with them. Thank you. 30 31 Crane: Carol. 32 33 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Clifton, I'd be glad to meet with all of the 34 stakeholder groups more as well as have an additional public meeting. 35 36 Crane: That help? Mr. Clifton. 37 38 Clifton: I think it will. I mean based on the ... action we commence with, I mean 1 39 don't agree that we should take action tonight, you have five individuals in 40 the audience, adamant, passionate about this issue and I think it would be 41 out of respect that at least we pursue you know one more attempt at a 42 meeting before we take action on this and then we can put it to bed. 43 44 Crane: Mr. Beard. 45 46 Beard: I didn't comment last ... or when you finished because I have so many 61 I questions in my mind and I didn't know where to go. It's like are we going 2 to start planning habitat in the arroyos. You know a plan says that you're 3 going to do something and so we come up with these ideas, but we don't 4 say that we're going to put bushes or trees in this arroyo on this particular 5 type or we're not going to do it on another type. It's a very comprehensive 6 subject and I just didn't know myself, is this really a plan that tells people 7 what to do or is this a plan that sort of make ... puts things really up in the 8 air as to what they should be doing? I think postponing it would be a good 9 idea, having more meetings. But I really don't ... I think this thing really ... 10 this is ... you really have to go deep ... I mean a buffer zone, just that 11 buffer zone alone, what is the buffer zone going to be for different 12 situations. That's a very hard subject to cover. People should know what 13 it is and maybe we address those things as they come up, I don't know. 14 We need the inputs from our developers probably more than anybody 15 else. I can't decide that. So I'm really up in the air as to what I would do 16 and if I don't know what I want to do then I don't want to pass it. So that's 17 my ... where I stand. I think you did a fantastic job though based on the 18 situation. 19 20 Crane: Let me play for time a little bit here by saying yes, this is an enormously 21 broad and deep task that you've been given Carol and you've done a 22 bang up job. It goes against my grain to say this but I have substantial 23 sympathy for the points made by the five speakers tonight. It still seems 24 to me as it did after the work session that we're probably going to have to 25 write off those sections of arroyo which are at present in developed areas. 26 1 don't see how we could retroact if we go back and recommend accept as 27 a general policy but certainly not as a matter of regulation. The people go 28 back and remake the arroyos in the way that we might all like to see them 29 be done. Clear distinction should therefore be made between plans for 30 existing developed arroyos or arroyos that are in developed areas and 31 those that are in what you call developable areas in which all negotiations 32 regarding the land and the cost of it and so on could be done with the idea 33 in mind that the arroyos would belong to the city and the city can dictate 34 how the channels are supposed to be handled. Then the realtors, the 35 developers, would know where they are, where their land begins and they 36 wouldn't have to be worried about having any of their property taken from 37 them. 38 Another major section is what I think reflects some of the concerns 39 of my colleagues, this is all very vague and necessarily so, it's impossible 40 to make a plan at this point that has regulation in it. I don't think you had 41 any regulation. This is more a concept plan of what it would be nice to do 42 to preserve the quality of the arroyos for the benefit of everybody in the 43 future. If we send this up to the City Council I hope they'd read it and think 44 about it and ask questions and maybe get some modifications made, but it 45 still wouldn't be quite regulation. I don't think ... correct me if I'm wrong 46 Carol ... that you have anything in there which stipulates anything as 62 I opposed to recommending, is that right? 2 3 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, to my knowledge I don't. 4 5 Crane: Yeah. Thank you. So I think this is a question for planning ... for 6 Community Development. If we pass this, send it up to City Council, City 7 Council says great plan, at what point and by whom are regulations going 8 to be written to implement the plan? The City Council has this with a 9 stamp on it saying okay. What happens next? 10 11 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, if it were to be adopted, then steps would be 12 taken to look at the policies that are in the plan and determine whether 13 there is already a regulation or something in an ordinance that addresses 14 it and if not, how it should be addressed in ordinance form. And I honestly 15 can't say how quickly that would happen. I mentioned earlier that there is 16 an interdepartmental committee working on amendments to chapter 32 of 17 the Municipal Code already, the design standards, which will be changed 18 ... I think the title is going to be changed to Development Standards. So, 19 some of these things are already ... oh, some of these things are already 20 being addressed. 21 22 LIGHTS WENT DOWN FOR A MOMENT. 23 24 Crane: (inaudible) some cosmic source. 25 26 McCall: Simultaneous to this process. 27 28 Crane: Okay, so as I understand it, there will be opportunities in the future for the 29 issues to be addressed, the issue of regulation. I mean Community 30 Development if it comes up with regulations as you state, in the absence 31 of anything current. Those regulations have to be voted on by Planning 32 and Zoning, City Council, who? 33 34 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, yes. There would be public comment and any 35 changes to the Municipal Code as I believe would come to this body and 36 then go to the City Council, after public input. 37 38 Crane: Okay. Thank you. Anyone else have questions for Ms. McCall? Mr. 39 Clifton. 40 41 Clifton: Again, that's just my very concern. This gets adopted and it's so loose we 42 don't know what will happen and Mr. Binns comes in with a development 43 application next to an arroyo, in all likelihood I think most of us in this room 44 know exactly what's going to happen. We all ... we all know what's going 45 to happen, even if it hasn't been codified yet you have a policy document 46 that has been adopted by the City Council that is still a guiding document 63 I formulating your recommendations and I echo once again Mr. Beard's 2 comments, this is just so broad. And you have your stakeholders right 3 here. I think we can get at least a couple meetings in before we take any 4 type of action. I mean I am not prepared to ... well I'm prepared to act on 5 it tonight but I'd prefer to see some consensus building amongst the staff 6 and the individuals in this room. 7 8 Crane: Let me ask you for clarification. What do you see happening when Mr. 9 Binns comes to the council and says I've got this new piece of property I 10 want to develop that straddles an arroyo, what do you see happening? 11 12 Clifton: That we don't know. I mean it won't ... if he has a project at the staff level 13 it probably won't even reach this body until they resolve the arroyo issue 14 based on the policy document. In terms of what would I envision if they ... 15 if we give them some time to meet, at least an opportunity to build some 16 consensus and if not they can at least come back and say, we couldn't 17 reach an agreement, this is ... it is what it is. 18 19 Beard: The City has comment. 20 21 Crane: Yes Ms. Harrison-Rogers. 22 23 H-Rogers: Just a point of clarification, I would like to point out if there was private 24 property and let's assume that it was zoned multi-family or commercial 25 and they came in simply for a building permit underneath the auspices of 26 that particular zone, this policy document would not halt that project. They 27 would only be obligated to construct to our minimum standards, which is 28 outlined in our design standards as they currently sit. So, a project of that 29 type wouldn't be delayed because of this policy document. But 30 Commissioner Clifton it is accurate that perhaps the policy document 31 could influence projects that came before this Board, such as a zone 32 change, a planned unit development, things of that nature. 33 34 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Stowe did you have your light on? 35 36 Stowe: Just a comment that as I understand it at the end of the day there's no 37 funding to implement this plan. 38 39 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Stowe, that's correct at this time, there is not. 40 41 Stowe: That's kind of strike two. Thank you. 42 43 Crane: You have indicated that you are prepared to meet with this group of 44 people behind you representing essentially the building industry to see if 45 you can iron out some questions. 46 64 1 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, I would be glad to. In fact, in listening to the 2 gentlemen state their case and articulate their concerns, it's ... it is clear to 3 me that the language in the plan could be improved because there is 4 some misunderstanding between what I've written and what I think it says 5 and what they're reading. 6 7 Crane: Is there any parallel but opposite group of people that you could meet 8 with, not necessarily the same time, but to give some balance here, cause 9 these are very articulate and energetic gentlemen, and have somebody 10 from the grassroots who might have a different view that you could get 11 with? 12 13 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners ... 14 15 Crane: If it hasn't already been done I'm assuming. 16 17 McCall: I would actually schedule additional meetings with all three stakeholder 18 groups; engineers, conservationists, and the developers, and I would have 19 an additional public meeting. 20 21 Crane: Thank you. Mr. Clifton. 22 23 Clifton: I'd like to make a motion that Case PA-14-01 be postponed indefinitely. 24 That's just simply non-date specific, we can't pin a date to it. 25 26 Crane: You really mean indefinitely or to ... until Ms. McCall has had these 27 meetings that she has spoken of? Indefinitely sounds like you shot it in 28 the head. 29 30 Clifton: I will rephrase my motion. I would like to recommend postponement until 31 such time as staff has had the opportunity to meet with the necessary 32 stakeholders regarding Case PA-14-01. 33 34 Crane: Is there a second for that? 35 36 Beard: Comment. Discussion. 37 38 Crane: Let's get a second first. 39 40 Beard: Last time I seconded I didn't get a discussion. 41 42 Crane: You're too shy. Okay. Mr. Stowe are you going to second? 43 44 Stowe: I second the motion. 45 46 Crane: Okay, now Mr. Beard. 65 1 2 Beard: Should we include what we want to hear in this postponement? I mean for 3 postponement we're going to have an input, are there things that we ... 4 that we want to definitely hear somebody say something on, like on the 5 buffer zone. We've got to address the buffer zone. Do we actually want 6 to put in a criteria for the various buffer zones or do we ... do we want 7 recommendations that ... that these types of things will be decided later 8 on? What I'm trying to say is, this is a ... the buffer zones happen to be 9 an important subject, how do we want ... how do we want that to be 10 addressed back to us? Do we want definitive numbers or do we not care? 11 Do we ... can we live without the numbers? Do we want to plant trees in 12 all of the arroyos, I mean or put bushes in all of them? Just to have more 13 discussion and then come back, what I'm trying to say is, I answered 14 many government proposals, those were plans and in there we said 15 exactly what we were going to do. The government then decided which 16 contractor they were going to pick. This plan doesn't really come down to 17 saying this is exactly what we're going to do, yeah or nay on it. It has a lot 18 of recommendations but it doesn't have any ... I don't think, policies. Do 19 we want the policies to be addressed in here? I don't know if I'm getting 20 my thoughts across or not, but what do we expect out of ... in the next 21 meeting? 22 23 Crane: Ms. Ferrary. 24 25 Ferrary: I don't think we can define those things. This is a management plan. This 26 is something that you know the policies are going to be reviewed and then 27 presented later on even after the plan has been adopted. I think this is a 28 stall tactic and I commend Carol for having the patience to do more. 29 30 Crane: Mr. Clifton. 31 32 Clifton: Mr. Chair ... 33 34 Crane: If you're going ... are you going to address Mr. Beard's point? 35 36 Clifton: Yes. 37 38 Crane: Okay. 39 40 Clifton: I was going to touch on that just a bit. I think it's ... staff can correct me if 41 I'm wrong, I think it's ... even though we postpone, I think it's well within 42 the Commissions purview to recommend certain items that you may want 43 to see before we take action at the next meeting. Maybe another work 44 session next month would be appropriate, I don't know. But I think it's well 45 within your right to ask for certain items. I don't know that we can drill 46 down to the specific width as that would be more of the technical issue 66 1 addressed in the (inaudible) ordinance, but I think you can. 2 3 Crane: Commissioner Beard. 4 5 Beard: I agree. I was just trying ... what are we expecting differently next time 6 than what we got this time? 7 8 Crane: I don't think we are in a ... at a point yet where we should try to get very 9 specific. There've been all kinds of concerns expressed tonight by all 10 kinds of people and they're all in the record, whether Carol and the others 11 will have access to the record, I don't know. But in any event do you have 12 access to the recordings, I mean excluding what Becky's going to come 13 up with, the minutes? 14 15 McCall: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, yes I have ... I do have access to the minutes. 16 17 Crane: Okay. So you know what at least some of the points of contention are and 18 if you can work something out with the industry and separately no doubt 19 with the conservation and engineers groups, I think we'd all profit from 20 whatever you can come up with. Specifics at this point I don't know, like 21 numbers defining buffer zones and so on, I don't think we're ready for it. 22 Is it ... the questions more like is it feasible to even have the concept of 23 bufferzones? 24 25 Beard: Right. Exactly right. Right. And there was one ... one comment made 26 that we have too many regulations already, well what's the alternate 27 proposal then? I don't know that that is. 28 29 Crane: Okay, so we have a motion that this ... essentially this be postponed until 30 (inaudible) until Ms. McCall has made adjustments to her plan based on 31 meetings with these three stakeholder groups, does that summarize it 32 nicely Mr. Clifton? 33 34 Clifton: Yes Mr. Chair. 35 36 Crane: Okay. So, we have a second for that. Are we ready to vote? I think we 37 are. Okay, stating with you Mr. Beard. 38 39 Beard: Yes based on discussions. 40 41 Crane: Yes, Ms. Ferrary. 42 43 Ferrary: No based on discussions. 44 45 Crane: Mr. Stowe. 46 67 1 Stowe: Yes based on discussions. 2 3 Crane: Mr. Clifton. 4 5 Clifton: Yes based on discussion. 6 7 Crane: The Chair votes yes. So the measure passes four to one and we will 8 readdress this in the future. Thank you. 9 10 McCall: Thank you very much. 11 12 VII. OTHER BUSINESS - NONE 13 14 Crane: As the sole representative of your department here is there ... I beg your 15 pardon. Are there any more matters of business? 16 17 H-Rogers: None this evening. 18 19 Crane: Okay. 20 21 VIII. PUBLIC PARTICIPATION 22 23 IX. STAFF ANNOUNCEMENTS 24 25 X. ADJOURNMENT (9:37) 26 27 Crane: In that case we are adjourned at about 9:36. Thank you all. 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 Chairperson 35 36 68