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03/16/2004WS~, ? 1 WORK SESSION MEETING 2 OF THE 3 PLANING AND ZONING COMMISSION 4 FOR THE 5 CITY OF LAS CRUCES 6 March 16, 2004 7 6:00 pm 8 9 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: 10 Henry Young, Chair 11 Quentin Ford 12 W.F. Bill Ludtke 13 Elizabeth Camunez 14 Nancy Binneweg 15 16 STAFF PRESENT: OTHERS PRESENT: 17 Robert Kyle, Planner Sylvia Camunez, Las Esperanzas 18 Carol McCall, KLCB Coordinator David Chavez, Las Esperanzas 19 Lisa Bookin, Planner 20 Carmen Alicia Lucero, Recording Secretary 21 22 HENRY YOUNG: Let's go ahead and call the meeting to order, and the first thing that we have is 23 the approval of our Work Session Minutes. And you'll notice that one of those goes all the way back to 24 May of last year. Are there any comments or corrections on that set of minutes? No one? Is there a 25 motion to approve the minutes? -1- ~ '~ a 1 ELIZABETH CAMUNEZ: I make a motion. 2 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, is there a second? Any one? 3 NANCY BINNEWEG: I'm abstaining. 4 QUENTIN FORD: I second. 5 WILLIAM LUDTKE: Yeah, wait for the Doctor, he always finds something. 6 CHAIR YOUNG: Well, since there's only four of us, we'll still call the roll. 7 Commissioner Camur~ez? 8 CAMUNEZ: Yes. 9 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Ludtke? 10 LUDTKE: Yes. 11 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Ford? 12 FORD: Yes. 13 CHAIR YOUNG: I guess I'll call you. 14 BINNEWEG: Abstain. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: And Chair votes Aye. 16 So those are approved. Now let's ga to the January 20, 2004, minutes; comments or corrections 17 on those? 18 LUDTKE: Motion to accept. 19 FORD: Second. 20 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Camur~ez? 21 CAMUNEZ: Yes. 22 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Ludtke? 23 LUDTKE: Yes. 24 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Ford? 25 FORD: Yes. CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Binneweg? -2- 1 BINNEWEG: Abstain. 2 CHAIR YOUNG: And Chair votes Aye. 3 OK. We're ready far the Rio Grande Corridor Project. I assume you're Carol? 4 CAROL MCCALL: I am. 5 While the projector's warming up I'll just hand out some more paper. 6 LUDTKE: Thank you. 7 CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. 8 MCCALL: May I sit down? 9 BINNEWEG: Yes. 10 MCCALL: But, let me know if anyone can't hear me. Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity to 11 be here today. I'm Carol McCall and I work in the Community Development Department with Robert. For 12 the last three years I've been working on the Rio Grande Repair and Ecological Project. It started in 2000 13 when the City got a grant from the EPA to create a comprehensive plan for the River Corridor and two 14 construction projects that would be situated along the corridor. 15 Our focus was an eleven mile stretch from the Rio Grande, from the Shalem Colony Bridge to the 16 Mesilla Damn. And we decided to look within the levees and outside the floodway in order to consider 17 projects that could be carried out on private property such as trails, trail connections, small businesses, 18 that sort of thing. 19 The Comprehensive Plan integrates the missions of the stake holders along with input from the 20 public described as a set of goals for sustainable development of the corridor. 21 The two construction projects, the Multi-use Pathway, and the Wetland, were created to 22 complement the objectives of the Comprehensive Plan, by creating opportunities for multi jurisdictional 23 cooperation and public input. And this pilot project just gave us a chance to work out some of the kinks 24 for future projects that may come along at some point. Learn from your mistakes, sort to speak. 25 So, we made that small and I'll tell you a little bit mare about them in a minute. -3- .. • • 1 The project stake holders included Federal, State, and local agencies who manage projects along 2 the river. And they participated in the creation of the Comp. Plan and the goals, and the planning of the 3 two pilot projects. And in addition to the State holders, there were...there was participation from the 4 Town of Melilla, Dona Ana County, and the National Park Service Rivers and Trails Program. 5 Together, the project participants came up with this Mission Statement: To create a guide for fi future development of the Corridor which will be sustaining and non-polluting. 7 The guidelines of the grant. The grant was a Sustainable Development Challenge Grant, and so 8 our first task was to figure out what's sustainable development meant. And, apply that meaning to the 9 Corridor and the uses for the river. And, what we came up with, through the research, is "meeting the 10 needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own need." 11 And, in the guidelines for the grant, the EPA stresses way in which you can accomplish this, and 12 so we try to keep them in mind when we were drafting the Comprehensive Plan. 13 And, these were that: Public input would be a priority; all the stake holders would be included in 14 the decision making process; public access is ensured following completion of any projects that are 15 publicly funded; 16 And, that isn't on your screen, anticipate future problems and solve them as part of the planning 17 process. And that turned out to be quite important when we were constructing the path and the wetland. 18 We considered all the ways in which the Rio Grande is used, and applied them to this 19 sustainability model, in which the needs of the Economy, the Environment, and quality of life ar Social 20 Equity are in balance. 21 And, just to give you some examples of what we're talking about, Social Equity would mean clean 22 surroundings, recreation, safety and security, educational opportunities, transportation access, things of 23 that source. 24 And for the Economy, environmental and conscious industry, ecotourism, low unemployment 25 rates, smart growth, healthy agricultural economic base, that sort of thing. -4- . • • 1 And for the Environment, restoration of habitat, conservation of biodiversity, and pollution 2 prevention. 3 The Ria Grand Corridor Project complements various goals and objectives far farmland and open 4 space preservation, and for recreation and economic development that are described in most of the major 5 planning documents for the City and County and Town of Mesilla. And in addition, the New Mexico State 6 Parks Division has a Southern New Mexico Recreation Master Plan, which includes this stretch of the 7 river and the International Boundary and Water Commission is working on an environmental impact 8 statement right now, and in it also includes some habitat restoration steps in this eleven mile corridor. 9 To determine the set of goals and objectives for the Comp. Plan, work groups representing all of 10 the stake holders and about 20 user groups got together on a regular basis and in addition we had two 11 sets of three public meetings. 12 One, to introduce the project, and then one further along when we had some rough idea of what 13 the Comp. Plan goals would be, and we also had surveys that we sent out to property owners that lived 14 near by. 15 What we discovered in collecting the public input is that, the public is in favor of preserving the 16 rural character of the Corridor as much as possible. And would support, open space and agricultural 17 preservation and trails and parks along the river and outside the levee boundaries for up to one half mile. 18 Among residents, the other primary concerns were illegal dumpings, safety, codes enforcements, 19 vehicle restrictions, and that sort of thing; hunting restrictions. 20 The primary reason that these things have gone unmitigated for so long is that, most of the 21 agencies who manage projects along the river, don't have enforcement arms. They make the guidelines 22 and the regulations, but they don't enforce them, they depend on the County, the Sheriff's Department, 23 and to a lesser extent, the Town of Mesilla and the City of Las Cruces to enforce them. And so, of 24 course, everything falls through the cracks and we're left with water heaters, and sofas, and mattresses 25 that are at the river, and parties, and people shooting too close to residential areas, and that sort of thing. -5- • • 1 The public also expressed quite a keen interest in learning more the history and the heritage of 2 the Rio Grande. And, it seemed to be in favor of things like nature centers, cultural centers, outdoor class 3 room activities, and that sort of thing. 4 Several objectives were created to help fulfill each goal, and they were divided into Projects And 5 Management Concepts. And, some of the projects are, Habitat Restoration, Creating Wetlands at 6 suggested cites along the Corridor, building parks, creating a trail system that connects with other trails 7 that already existing, building a nature center, and a cultural center, and a wildlife rehabilitation center. 8 And, I think Robert gave you a copy of the Comprehensive Plan, and these are described in more 9 detail on page 32, if you're interested in discussing them further at the end of this presentation. 1Q The Proposed Management Concepts would involve the stake holders, and local municipalities, 11 and Dona Ana County. Since all of them have individual missions and project management practices, 12 multi-jurisdictional cooperation and responsibility would be absolutely essential. 13 And, what that really boils down to is, one entity telling the other entity what they're doing. And, 14 somehow working together to make sure that they don't step on each others toes, that the missions are 15 complimentary, and that they're able to help each other out to the greatest extent possible. 16 And, with your handout that I just gave you, I included two maps, and they're also in the 17 Comprehensive Plan; one shows the suggested trait system, the parks, the cultural center, and the 18 wildlife center, and the second one shows the locations of the suggested wetlands. 19 And, just to give you an idea, there's a piece of property right up here that's own by the New 2Q Mexico State Parks Division. It's actually the only piece of property that is adjacent to both a major 21 roadway and the river. And, so we thought it would be a good idea to situate one of the parks there and 22 perhaps the cultural center, since so much of the northern part of the Corridor does have a very rich 23 cultural background; Shalem Colony, the Village of Dana Ana, the Robledo Mountains, and the track 24 ways, which are in the Robledo Mountains. And then, the other proposed park is down here at the Calle 25 Del Norte Bridge. -6- . • • 1 And, that includes a bike route to Mesilla, and the dotted lines indicate the bike route that runs the 2 length of the Corridor and connects with other smaller trails, some of which exist and some of which have 3 to be built. And, the parks also include Park & Ride locations. So, you could take the bike on the bus to 4 the park and ride around out there and then get back on the bus with your bike and go home. 5 And, here are the suggested wetland cites. Many of them are also noted in the IBWC 6 Canalization Environmental Statement. There are only two, however, that the City would actually have 7 some sort of jurisdiction over, and that's the Outfall Channel, right here, which is City owned, and it goes 8 this way to the east. And, the Alamo Drain Clark Lateral; there's already a proposal in place for this one 9 with the Army Corp of Engineers and the City, although they put that on the back burner for a while 10 because they don't have any funding for it, but it is something they hope to work on in the future. 11 Now, I'll just tell you a little bit about the Pilot Projects. The Multi-use Pathway starts at La 12 Llorona Park here and goes one mile north. We decided to build it here because it would connect with 13 the Outfall Channel, which is one of the major bike pathways on the City's Bicycle Master Plan along the 14 canals and ditches. 15 And, here's a diagram of it, it extends up to here, the pathway includes a 5% slope up to the 16 levee, and these little green dots are tress, and the little red dots are park benches; La LLorona Park is 17 down here. 18 And, it's actually situated away from the river. Starting at La LLorona Park and going north there 19 are intermittent "No Mow Zones" up to Caballo Dam, and the "No Mow Zones" extend 35 feet from the 20 bank of the river into the flood way. So, in order to be able to disturb the ground and plant trees, we had 21 to work that far outside the bank. 22 BINNEWEG: What's a "No Mow Zone?" 23 MCCALL: Well, IBWC typically mows the floodway... 24 BINNEWEG: OK. 25 MCCALL: ...and these intermittent "No Maw Zones" are places where they don't mow to provide habitat protection. _~_ . • • 1 And, here's a picture of the City starting the pathway last fall, it should, actually it was completed 2 last Friday, and was paved with a mixture of rock-finds and plant-based stabilizers. And, I'll pass around 3 this chunk of material; this is what is paved with. 4 And, this is a picture of the portion of the pathway that is paved. This, all of this edging here, 5 where (inaudible) will be, or has been removed. And, later in the spring we'll be planting trees in this area 6 and putting in an occasional trash can and a couple of park benches. 7 BINNEWEG: Where is this, north of La LLorona? 8 MCCALL: North it goes one mile. 9 The Wetland Pilot is situated in an area southwest of the Calle Del Norte Bridge known as the 10 Picacho Bosque, and this is property that's owned by the New Mexico Department of Game & Fish. 11 This huge triangle of land is the New Mexico Game & Fish property. the Picacho Bosque, this is 12 the Picacho Drain, this is under the jurisdiction of Elephant Butte Irrigation District. 13 And, this is the end of the levee road; if you follow it back this way, north, is where the Calle Del 14 Norte bridge is at. 15 And, this circle is where our little wetland was constructed. There's no, well, this computer has a 18 mind of its own, there's no motorized vehicle access, except for maintenance and occasional guided tours 17 with handicapped access. The wetland is now under the management of the Southwest Environmental 18 Center, who's working with the New Mexico Department of Game & Fish to maintain the property. 19 And, I...you may know about this, The Mesilla Valley Basque Park proposed, encompasses quite 20 a bit of praperty, something like 400 acres and goes down to the dam and all the way up to the Calle Del 21 Norte bridge. 22 Governor Richardson recently allotted funding for a feasibility study and land acquisition for that 23 park and, it will become the 33'~ State park. 24 I don't know at what point it will be turned over to the State Parks Division, they're just getting 25 started on a feasibility study this year. -8- . • • 1 Here's a picture of the ponds that we excavated. This is looking south; the Picacho Drain is over 2 here. We'll also be installing benches and trash cans, and some interpretive signage along the trails 3 of...at the wetland site. And, we hope to do that later in the Spring, as well. 4 Here's a picture of...an after-picture; up here are the ponds; this is the one that I just showed you 5 a picture of. This has water in it, but typically it would not, it's referred to as a wet meadow, and would 6 only have water in it if this pond overflows. The water is diverted from the Picacho Drain right here, and 7 then there's another diversion that takes it back to the Picacho Drain down here. 8 This is the hill that was constructed with dirt from the pond that we excavated, and that's already 9 been planted with tress, and shrubs, and native grasses, and so in a couple of years, you won't even 10 notice it, it will be all filled in. 11 This area was cleared of salt cedar last Summer, and I believe that this is going to be re- 12 vegetated too with native tress and shrubs. And there will be an observation area right here, with some 13 signage and a park bench. 14 The thing that I just want to explain before we discuss this project is that, obviously very, very little 15 of the Corridor is within the City limits; La LLorona Park is about the only part. But, as the community 16 continues to grow and development along the river becomes an issue, the ETZ will be very actively 17 involved, and since the City is part of the Extra Territorial Authority, there will be some joint management, 18 and some joint decision making that will take place. 19 I do hope at some point in the future that the County either adopts this plan, or drafts something 20 similar. They've offered to write a resolution in support of the plan, but I think in order for it to have really 21 any kind of impact, the County will have to adopt it, and work a the County line level to guide 22 development along the river a little more closely. 23 And, that's it. Can I answer questions or give you any more information? 24 BINNEWEG: I'm just curious why the City is taking such a (inaudible) of a stance when not much 25 of it is within its boundaries. -9- . • • 1 MCCALL: Well, we gat the grant; I think that's primarily the reason. There was a splendid 2 opportunity and the City Manager at the time, I think though it was something that we could, you know, 3 get the funding for, extending the bike path further was...would be a good thing, something that could be 4 completed within a short period of time. And, then the project just evolved. The EPA, after we were 5 awarded the grant, the EPA came in and said, well, this is what we would like you to do, as far as the 6 Comprehensive Plan goes. A lot of public outreach, a lot of education about the Valley and the Rio 7 Grande, and so, it kind of just grew from there as an awareness tool, more than anything else. 8 And, when we started, I wasn't exactly sure what kind of plan we would come up with, what the 9 result would be. But, it turned out to be primarily a Farmland Preservation And Open Space Preservation 10 Plan. 11 And, that was pretty much guided by public input. 12 CAMUNEZ: I think the whole thing is a good idea, the only concern I have is, is this going to 13 increase our drowning deaths, with so many people along the river there? 14 MCCALL: You mean, what do you mean by, you mean like water? 15 CAMUNEZ: Yeah, water use. 16 MCCALL: Well, I... 17 CAMUNEZ: You know, people once they get on that river water, they have a tendency to go 18 right in and... 19 MCCALL: Yeah. Well, swimming is definitely not encouraged and IBWC is adamant about 20 never allowing swimming in the river. That's who you're talking about, right? 21 CAMUNEZ: Right. 22 MCCALL: There's one fellow at one of the public meetings who lives around Radium Springs 23 who's on a Search and Rescue Team, and he said about 20 people a year drown in the river. And, you 24 don't hear about it very often, but I don't think...) know the river is clean enough to swim in, the water is, 25 but there won't be any provisions made fro swimming. _10_ • • 1 YOUNG: There's been allowance for canoes or boats, or anything? 2 MCCALL: Yeah. There are suggested inputs for canoes at the parks where we refer to as the 3 urban hubs where there would be parking lots and parks and facilities for the public, and then in between 4 the urban hub areas, it would be more remote and less developed. But canoe inputs and even...if the 5 trail system were to go south or north, portage areas, where, you know, like at the dam, that sort of thing. 6 And, some facilities for equestrians as well; we did hear from the equestrian community and 7 things like hitching posts, water, access to water, that sort of thing, is what they suggested. 8 CHAIR YOUNG: Sound to me like we're still gonna have a problem; unless the County adopts it, 9 you're still have the enforcement issue... 10 MCCALL: Right. 11 CHAIR YOUNG: ...and it wouldn't be better than it is right now. 12 MCCALL: That's right, and some people were worried that if we built a pathway the length of the 13 river, that it would encourage more riff Taff, you know, more hanky panky, but we found that with the three 14 mile stretch that was built a few years ago is that it has really cut down on that. It legitimizes presence at 15 the river, so to speak, and so people who break the law, are less likely to go there, because they're 16 observed and scrutinized. It's hard to say, I just today sent a e-mail to the International Boundary Water 17 Commission about partnering with the City to do some traffic control along that one mile stretch where the 18 pathway, because it just got built and the ATVs are already using it as a super highway. So, we have to 19 find a way not to allow motorized vehicles from the levee dawn into the floodway. 20 CHAIR YOUNG: Let us just wait for just a minute while....go ahead. 21 FORD: I have a little trouble with the proposed boundaries. You were talking about a half mile 22 boundary on either side... 23 MCCALL: Mh hm. 24 FORD: ...or some kind of a control. Isn't that private property, and isn't the current housing and 25 farming up to... -11- . • • 1 MCCALL: Yeah. 2 FORD: ...the Bureau of Reclamation boundaries... 3 MCCALL: Yes. 4 FORD: ...so, would you displace those people and... 5 MCCALL: No. 6 FORD: ...and remove them from housing, remove them farming or any activities, prevent any 7 future activities, within a half mile of either side of the... 8 MCCALL: No. 9 FORD: ...of (inaudible) 10 MCCALL: No, what that indicates is...what that means is, certain types of development. The 11 area is already zoned rural and low density residential, and so what the plan proposes is that it would 12 never be any more than that. It's, you know, private property, and so the people who own that land can 13 do anything they want to with it, but what the plan suggests is that anybody who may be interested in 14 selling their land, just stop and think a minute about what the options are, because there's more than one 15 option, you don't have to sell your land to a developer who will turn it into a subdivision. You can sell the 16 development rights, or you can participate in a lot of natural resource incentive programs. It just takes a 17 little more planning. If you wake up one morning and decide that you want to sell your farm, there may 18 not be that day something that you can do besides sell it to a developer, but if you know that five years 19 down the road you gonna want to sell your land, then you can start thinking now about what you might 20 want to do in five years. 21 And, an example of this is the farm that's right at the end of...if you're crossing the Calle Del 22 Norte Bridge and you turn on South Fair Acres Road, that farm belongs to Buford Harris, if you were to 23 just keep going. And, he's working with the Natural Resources Conservation Service and got some 24 funding to plan oats in one of his meadows. Oats attract water fowl, and since that area is gonna be part 25 of the Mesilla Valley Bosque Park, is a good sort of win-win situation for him. -12- • • 1 So, they're a lot of...a lot of things that farmers can do, if they just stop and think about it and 2 decide that they want to participate. 3 And, that's actually the biggest...one the biggest criticisms I've gotten in the draft, which means 4 that I'm not explaining it very well, and it has to be fixed in the revision because what it's been interpreted 5 as, you're telling us what we have to do with our land, and that's not the case at all, it's more like we're 6 proposing options that any proper#y owner can take advantage of voluntarily. 7 CHAIR YOUNG: Any other comments or questions? We... 8 LUDTKE: The wife and I went down and walk this. I didn't know this was coming up, but it was a 9 couple of weeks ago... 10 MCCALL: Mh hm. 11 LUDTKE: ...two weeks or three. We went everywhere you're talking about and all the way down 12 south, past 10 and all of that. It's really nice, there were people there...already starting to drive on this 13 north end past Picacho, down in there. And, I think the construction crew that was working there, like I'd 14 seen them there... 15 MCCALL: Mh hm. 16 LUDTKE: ...on the slide, they were there at the end...down at the end, the north end... 17 MCCALL: Mh hm. 18 LUDTKE: ...clearing up bushes, whatever. And, I guess there's nobody here who's gonna 19 guarantee us water in that Rio Grande, huh? 20 MCCALL: Unfortunately... 21 LUDTKE: I mean, that wetland that you're talking about that we put in is just going to be dried 22 mud and... 23 MCCALL: Well, you know... 24 LUDTKE: ...they're not gonna put water in when there's... 25 MCCALL: ...there was water in it this winter, because there was water in the drain. LUDTKE: Mh hm. -13- . • • 1 MCCALL: And you know, I don't get...l don't understand that whole system, because the drains 2 typically do have water in them, even when the irrigation ditches are dry. 3 CHAIR YOUNG: From the well water. 4 BINNEWEG: From springs. 5 CHAIR YOUNG: If they irrigate with well water... 6 MCCALL: So there's still runoff... 7 CHAIR YOUNG: ...there's still runoff... 8 MCCALL: ...so... 9 LUDTKE: Oh. 10 MCCALL: Yeah. So, and that's the other thing that I think that I need to stress in the Comp. 11 Plan Revision, is that the proposal isn't to take water away from farming in order to construct these 12 wetlands, but as water is available, or as something can be worked out, project by project, then one can 13 be constructed. Say, maybe, if and when we're nat longer in a drought, then it would be a more 14 successful thing, but the whole idea, is that, yeah, there's no water, then there is no water for the wetland 15 either; that's just a given. And the plan also talks about; you know, water banks and land banks, that sort 16 of donation _ donating your water right, that kind of thing. And, if anything like that ever happens, then 17 certainly I think there would be people...someone would more seriously consider constructing one of the 18 wetlands. 19 But, it's all theoretical, it's all proposed, like this is what we could do if. And, any single item, any 20 single project in the plan could be just taken individually and taken on by any entity, private individual, or 21 group, or... 22 LUDTKE: Is this an accumulation of four years work? 23 MCCALL: Three, three. 24 LUDTKE: Three years? I notice here on the conclusion section, I set there today, and then this 25 morning I read this from one end to the other. And, I noticed here it says that you specially formulating a conclusion, especially formed management district comprised of representatives, an and, on and, on... -14- . • • 1 So you're recommending that the, who? The County? Who's gonna form this district? 2 MCCALL: I don't know. 3 LUDTKE: The County, the City, the... 4 MCCALL: I don't know. 5 LUDTKE: Now, you're wanting the City to adopt this, so are you asking them to form a district? 6 MCCALL: Not necessarily. 7 LUDTKE: Liability wise, I mean, it says in here that the City's got liabilities. It says in here 8 that...who's gonna maintain these things. 9 MCCALL: Yeah. 10 LUDTKE: And the toilets aren't in there, I mean, 1 guess that park isn't... 11 MCCALL: The park is maintained by the City... 12 LUDTKE: Yeah. 13 MCCALL: ...and the pathway is maintained by the City. 14 LUDTKE: Mh hm. 15 MCCALL: But that's all. The other pilot project, the wetland, is maintained by Southwest 16 Environmental Center... 17 LUDTKE: Mh hm. 18 MCCALL: ...and then soon to came the State Parks division. But, I don't know the answer to 19 that, because any one of these projects, you know, for example, if the County decided to build a park at 20 Shalem Colony Bridge, or on that piece of property that's owned by the State Parks... 21 LUDTKE: Mh hm. 22 MCCALL: ...then, they'd have to work out an agreement with IBWC, and probably the Bureau of 23 Reclamation. And, so in some ways it's project by project in terms of who's involved in the management, 24 but I...in theory, it would be really great if there could be a management district, but I don't really know 25 who would take that forward and the plan doesn't suggest that the City take it forward. -15- • • 1 I think it would actually be the County or perhaps even private citizens who just take the initiative, 2 and you know, make sure it's on the front burner with the City and the County. But I can tell you right now 3 that the agencies are...would not be in favor of it because they don't want anybody else...they perceive 4 that as, "you're telling us what to do" instead of "let's all sit down together and figure out what to do." 5 LUDTKE: Mh hm. 6 MCCALL: They don't see it that way. And, so they wouldn't be interested in that because they 7 see it as compromising their mission... $ LUDTKE: Mh hm. 9 MCCALL: ...but I think what they don't understand is that every time a project like this comes 10 along, they have to do that anyway. They have to sit down with the people who were involved and come 11 up with an agreement that everybody is happy with, and then everybody...all of those entities have 12 responsibilities and from there on out, they carry out their responsibilities. 13 LUDTKE: There's the State Historical Preservation officer has to give approval for... 14 MCCALL: Yeah. 15 LUDTKE: ...things along here, and all these things that these dams, this canals, these, even the 16 Rio Grande here is considered as a historical... 17 MCCALL: Yeah. 18 LUDTKE: ...things within the State, you can't touch them without his approval first of. 19 MCCALL: Yeah. 20 LUDTKE: And, just like a whole bureaucracy... 21 MCCALL: It's... 22 LUDTKE: ...bureaucratic... 23 MCCALL: It is, but... 24 LUDTKE: ...thing, you know, 25 MCCALL: ...when you know that... -1 G- . • ~ 1 LUDTKE: It's a good thing, but I mean, it's like... 2 MCCALL: ...you have to do it, it's very simple when you know you have to do it. It's just, you 3 know.. 4 LUDTKE: And then you gat all the...these...well, you've got a call for enforcement, there's 5 gonna have to be enforcement, I know you put it in here in the conclusion about enforcement. And, it 6 says call the County... 7 CAMUfVEZ: If we're gonna call on the County for enforcement though, forget it, because as it is 8 right now, they don't even have the manpower for any kind of enforcement. 9 LUDTKE: It says right here. 1 A CAM U N EZ: I know, I read it. 11 LUDTKE: So... 12 MCCALL: I know. 13 LUDTKE: We're... 14 MCCALL: And that's... 15 LUDTKE: ...it's gonna...it's a tough... 16 MCCALL: ...it's a long range... 17 CAMUNEZ: That it is. 18 LUDTKE: ...thing to follow here. 19 LUDTKE: Three years.. 20 MCCALL: It's very long range because if the County adopts this plan or similar plan, then they 21 have to say, "oh, well, you know what? We better start, you know, five years from now, we're gonna need 22 this many more officers in the Sheriff s department, so let's start working on that now. 23 BINNEWEG: And we can't take today's shortages and extrapolate into the future with them 24 because the County and this whole area is growing, and we have to keep...that's what this plan is, is all 25 of the City's best attempt now, knowing the growth that is going on in the City. -17- . ~ • 1 And, I spent 2'/x years up in Boise, Idaho, just recently. And, one of the reasons I moved there 2 was to be able to have my kids experience a similar river development like this, right in the middle of 3 town, where you can get on your bike and ride six and eight miles in any direction; you don't have to 4 cross, you know, river, you don't have to crass streets or anything else, and when I knew that Carol was 5 working, and the City was working on formulating this, I'm just happy to come back to see that there's 6 actually something dawn and it's just a snarl Pest of bureaucracy. You know, all the number of people, 7 but.. 8 MCCALL: Snarl fast, that's good. 9 BINNEWEG: ...but it, you know, it has to be done. And, I think that I...my take an reading the 10 packet was that everyone involved is reading this and saying, "Well, gosh guys, we're gonna have to start 11 coordinating something." And it makes sense, and now they have drawn up a draft, it's not just all 12 philosophical, theoretical. Yeah, there's hard part to it, rough parts to it, but if you don't have anything 13 down, how will you ever start? 14 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 15 MCCALL: And it's gonna take some time, you know, the agencies are just getting used to this 1 fi idea of, you know, doing things differently. And, it'll take them a little while longer to embrace it... 17 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. 18 MCCALL: ...but, you have to plant the seed and then take it and see what happens. 19 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. At least you...people can look at it and start adding their concrete 20 objections, their concrete, you know, submissions to it, rather than, you know, not having any basis to 21 start from. 22 CHAIR YOUNG: Did you have a comment, Robert? 23 ROBERT KYLE: I was just going to say that it's like the City's Comprehensive Planner it's a 24 policy document... 25 CHAIR YOUNG: Right. -1$- . • • 1 KYLE: ...it's where you want to be... 2 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. 3 KYLE: ...it's the implementation of those policies that it's always the biggest obstacle, its own 4 codes, and everything, so, (inaudible) hopefully you can accomplish most of all... 5 BINNEWEG: And any of those plans are proactive, we're putting out there, writing down what 6 you want, sometimes you look at it 10 years, then you go mphh, that was sort of naive of us, or 7 something, but you have to get it in writing. 8 MCCALL: And I am, I very frequently I stress that this is just something that we start thinking 9 about now so that in five years we'll be somewhere, at some point. 10 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. 11 MCCALL: Because it's not something that we can do in a year, I mean, just writing the thing took 12 three years. Although, it probably would have taken Robert six months. 13 LUDTKE: Oh, was excellent, it was an excellent read, I'll tell you that much. I sat there, with two 14 beers, said, "this is an excellent read." 15 BINNEWEG: Yes. 16 LUDTKE: I'm not kidding you, this was an excellent read. 17 Excellent, I've read a lot of...this was an excellent, excellent...put together beautifully. 18 MCCALL: Thank you. 19 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioners, any other questions or comments. 20 I had one final question. Do you have any kind of time line on revision... 21 MCCALL: Yeah. 22 CHAIR YOUNG: ...even down to presentation of the plan for adoption? 23 MCCALL: 1 would like to have...l've gotten comments back from the agencies, and I've made 24 almost all of the presentations to the governmental bodies. I wanted to have the revisions done by the 25 end of March; it's not very far. And, I want to take it to Council on April 19~h for adoption. -19- • • 1 KYLE: Procedurally we can't approve or deny her, we're hoping the Commission would...if we 2 go ahead and bring it forward next week for the Commission's recommendations so Carol can stay on 3 that time frame for Council. 4 CHAIR YOUNG: Sound all right with everyone? 5 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. 6 LUDTKE: You know, there was a one thing I see strange, and this has nothing to do with the 7 wording, it's like two pages of 64. 8 MCCALL: Oh, there's two page 64s? 9 KYLE: That, you know what...? 10 LUDTKE: Is that a... 11 KYLE: ...page 64 was the break. I had to copy this in two batches so... 12 LUDTKE: Oh, OK, OK, I see. 13 KYLE: ...and 64 was the break. 14 MCCALL: But that's good to point out because... 15 LUDTKE: The other thing was that "all pets must remain in control of their owners." 16 BINNEWE G: Ah ha. 17 LUDTKE: That sounded kind of strange when I read that, but... 18 MCCALL: That's a pipe dream. 19 LUDTKE: Yeah. That's in control of their owners... 20 MCCALL: Wait a minute, oh, it says...is that what is says? 21 LUDTKE: Yeah, yeah... 22 MCCALL: Pets must be in control of their owners? 23 LUDTKE: Yeah. 24 MCCALL: Oh, my gosh... 25 BINNEWE G: Well, now we know what kind of pet owner you are, Carol. -20- . • • 1 MCCALL: Well, now I know who's read it and who hasn't. 2 LUDTKE: Well, yeah, in case somebody does read it...and they'll say that, so you know ahead 3 of time. 4 MCCALL: All right. Well, I know my pets are in control of me, that's for sure. 5 BINNEWEG: That's good. 6 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, thank you very much. 7 MCCALL: Thank you, I appreciate it. 8 FORD: Have there been other studies along these lines? 9 MCCALL: Yes, there has. The Southern New Mexico Outdoor Recreation Master Plan, that the 10 State Parks Division did. But it concentrated on open space, camping, and open trails. But nothing like 11 this all-inclusive. 12 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. We are now ready for the Mesquite Neighborhood Plan and Overlay. 13 LISA BODKIN; Mr. Chairman, about a year ago, I think it was probably about a year ago, in 14 either February or March; Las Esperanzas is a local neighborhood group from the Mesquite area, 15 requested from Council to make a presentation, and requested Council to have some neighborhood 16 planning activities in their neighborhood area to deal with historic preservation, and land use, and pretty 17 much to come in and see what could be done and if planning staff could do that. And, at the time Council 18 said, "Absolutely, Planning staff, get started." 19 There were some State monies at the time that we were working with, we were finishing up some 2p other projects in other neighborhood areas, and finally we're able to get to the Mesquite Street Area. 21 Previously we had tried to start this project a couple of years ago, and had held a few neighborhood info 22 meetings throughout the area, 1 think a total of six in a about a six month period, and then, unfortunately 23 our activities were directed elsewhere. So we had had the basis to start with and met with the Board 24 members of Las Esperanzas a few times and came up with an idea to set up a committee that I worked 25 with. Sylvia Camuhez who is the president of Las Esperanzas is here with us this evening, and she's a -21- . • • 1 member of the Las Esperanzas Subcommittee for the Neighborhood Plan Proposed Ordinance. And, 2 David Chavez was also a member of the committee, who's also here this evening. 3 So, we sat down for several months every other week, and talk about what we'd heard at 4 previous input meetings at the Neighborhood Board meetings, and came up with a Neighborhood Plan 5 Proposal that deals with land use and zoning, historic preservation, neighborhood design, safety issues, 6 and the like. And, I'm happy to go through each of these down the road. 7 Because there were a lot of development pressures, such as potential...or the future Federal 8 Court House, rather, basically creating potential development pressures on the area, we felt a little hard 9 pressed for time, and decided that...well, we usually start with a Neighborhood Plan, get that adopted and 10 then work on that overlay because of some of these pressures occurring...we pretty much did it all at 11 once, so it is a little confusing. We've got both the Neighborhood Plan and the Ordinance here. 12 The Neighborhood Plan, again, is what is intended to guide the area, what kinds of policies 13 should be supported, the types of activities that once we get...one type of activity, for example, 14 Community Gardens, there's already the stage set to pursue other activities, in here in the plan. 15 In the Overlay Zone there are...this is where the policies then become law and get incorporated 16 into our Zoning Code, and they specifically deal with changing and...this did not, unfortunately did not get 17 incorporated into your planning document; this has changed since your packets were made up. 18 We held two very well attended neighborhood meetings in February. There were at least 50 19 people at each meeting, which is really great. We did a basic presentation and then broke up into small 20 groups so that we could have Las Esperanzas helping, actually. And, so, basically what people were 21 able to do is, in the small groups; some people aren't comfortable speaking in large groups. So we had a 22 lot of participation, people had a lot of questions, we were able to answer some questions, we were able 23 to Zook into some other questions and get back to people. 24 We were able to kind of get a better idea of where it was, Las Esperanzas and the City was 25 coming from, when we created these two documents and so we were able to come back and take a look at the Proposed Plan and Ordinance and pretty much more the Ordinance dealing with specific land uses -22- . • • 1 in each area creating basically new zones, creating a Design Review Board that'll look into new projects, 2 major remodel projects to make sure that there's compatibility with new designs locating in the 3 neighborhood. 4 And, so everybody was very concerned about this: We brought their comments, brought them 5 back, readjusted some things here and there, and that's why the...this differs from what's in your Plan. 6 Read the comments back and readjusted our map. Some of the things that would look different than 7 what you had; to the north the Commercial area from, it kind of fluctuates, but Via Mora north to Madrid, $ we changed to predominantly Commercial because there is a tremendous mix in that area and whether or 9 not really should have stayed residential. It was really rather questionable, it will probably eventually turn 1p predominantly Commercial at some point in time. 11 The property owners along Mesquite were rather vocal, well...the majority of uses in that area are 12 single family detached; they felt very strongly about the possibility of what C-2 Commercial could allow 13 them some time in the future, and did not want us to change that, so we left that the way it was. 14 Some other big changes in the area are the Neighborhood Mesquite Residential, which would 15 allow two dwelling units per lot and currently is predominantly R-2 and R-1. 16 So, far some people they might not be able to build to the density that they would under R-2. A 17 big concern from Las Esperanza's stand point and from several comments that we've gotten at the input 18 meetings, are the problems of rental units. And, they were feeling that the less...the fewer number of 19 apartments, the less problems they would have with rental units leaving it to, I hate to say dilapidation, but 20 a lot of the rental units are just not cared for the way a lot of the home owners in the area would like, and 21 while the Weed and Seed program is looking to start a Neighborhood Tenants, Renter Association, it's 22 still an issue and it's still a big rub with a lot of people in the area, and they would like to see more owner 23 occupied homes and feel that his is one way to allow people to perhaps live on the property and perhaps 24 have an income with an apartment on the side. And, so that was a big issue that we dealt with and that's 25 one of the bigger changes with the proposed zoning. -23- . • • 1 There's a lot in the Plan and there's a lot in the Ordinance. Again, there was a considerable 2 amount of time spent creating these documents through Las Esperanzas and through a number of 3 comments that we received at our input meetings, and I'll be happy to talk about any of those with you 4 this evening. And, we have, again two members of the Las Esperanzas Committee members that 5 participated in our bi-monthly meetings, and they, I'm sure, can...will be happy to answer any questions 6 that you might have about the Plan and Overlay. 7 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioners, any questions or comments? Commissioner Ludtke, you're 8 shaking your head. 9 LUDTKE: Oh, OK. A couple of things, Las Esperanzas you mention here in this, in the 10 Ordinance and in the Plan, or just in the Plan, or no? 11 BOOKIN: I believe they're mentioned in the Plan and but also in your packet, in general. 12 FORD: Yeah. 13 LUDTKN": Yeah. In the official approval document, are they talked about? 14 BOOKNN: They're talked about in the... 15 LUDTKE: `Cause the reason... 16 BOOKIN: ...We haven't done the... 17 LUDTKE: ...that I'm asking that is... 18 BOOKIN: ...the acknowledgements yet, but I believe there's a history of how this all came to be 19 and everything. 20 LUDTKE: Yeah. 21 CHAIR YOUNG: In the Ordinance itself, it wouldn't show up. 22 BOOKIN: No, ah ha... 23 LUDTKE: No, and... 24 BOOKIN: ...I don't think we talked about that. 25 LUDTKE: ...this draft here, like objective Two here...is this part of the... -24- w • • 1 PAT BECKETT: There's about a dozen people at City Hall that have been waiting here since six. 2 81NNEWEG: Oh, my God. 3 BOOKIN: Yeah, unfortunately, there was an article in the Sun-News today and they, it was in 4 error. They can... 5 CHAIR YOUNG: They're welcome, if they... 6 BECKETT: Oh, I know that. They've been told. 7 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. 8 FORD: Mr Chairman, I think we might be remiss if we continue our discussion without the public 9 ability tv join us. I would personally feel very uncomfortable. 10 CHAIR YOUNG: Well, they would have their opportunity also at the hearing. 11 I'd like to have input now, but... 12 Any other comments or questions? 13 LUDTKE: May I ask a question? 14 CHAIR YOUNG: Sure, I'm sorry. 15 LUDTKE: OK. Can...haw...here's my question, Las Esperanzas is like in partnership with the 16 City, it looks to me from reading this today... 17 BOOKIN: Mh hm. 18 LUDTKE: OK. They are a neighborhood group, OK? Is there a reason to be locking in one 19 neighborhood group and alienating other neighborhood groups, ar is...do they have a place in wording 20 there, or not? How long...what if last...these are a couple of things I thought of today, let's say, like we're 21 locked in the City of Las Cruces with Las Esperanzas, and somebody sues Las Esperanzas, where's the 22, liability with the City? Same may say no, some legal eagles may say yes. It...how long will Las 23 Esperanzas be in effect? Ten years, from now? 24 DAVID CHAVEZ: Three thousand years. What do you mean a law suit? I'm lost there, sir. 25 What would you...what would we'd be sued for? -25- a. 1 CHAIR YOUNG: You never can tell. 2 LUDTKE: You never can tell. I mean, this is something that public officials deal with all the time. 3 CHAVEZ: Well, we do have liability insurance, but... 4 LUDTKE: What I'm getting at is should we be mentioning one neighborhood group in an 5 Ordinance or in a Plan... 6 BODKIN: Well, the Ordinance... 7 LUDTKE: ...and why? $ BODKIN: Well, first of all... 9 CHAVEZ: We created it. 10 BODKIN: ...Las Esperanzas is the one, is the neighborhood group that requested... 11 LUDTKE: That the... 12 BODKIN: ...this to occur. 13 LUDTKE: I can understand that. 14 BODKIN: Right now, I'm only aware of Las Esperanzas being the only neighborhood group... 15 LUDTKE: However... 1 f BODKIN: ...to do that... 17 LUDTKE: ...right. 1$ BODKIN: ...in the area. 19 LUDTKE: ...right. I'm coming...let me say...l'm just asking about alienating other people 20 there...) know you say that there's like 50 people who attended. I'm looking at here, sir, and I'm seeing a 21 lot of blocks, sir. And, I'm probably seeing a lot more than 100 people here. And, I'm saying that some of 22 these people may not want to be associated with that organization. 23 BODKIN: Well, the Overlay zone... 24 LUDTKE: Have you considered that fact? 25 BODKIN: ...itself... -26- . • • 1 LUDTKE: You know, you alienate them, it's the City. As a representative of the City of Las City 2 of Las Cruces... 3 CHAVEZ: Well, we're not alienating them, they're being notified, and they're informed. All those 4 folks that live in all those properties have been informed; it's their choice to participate or not. You can't 5 make someone vote, if they don't want to vote, they know what's going on. They're just some who are 6 very empathetic about the neighborhood and they don't care, and it's sad. There's a huge group of 7 individuals who live in the neighborhood who are trying to bring the neighborhood back up, and it's not 8 that we're trying to control the neighborhood is we're trying to save the neighborhood. 9 LUDTKE: Right, I understand that. 10 CHAVEZ: And, at that point, we're not thinking about who we're alienating or anything, we trying 11 to do it far the betterment of the whole neighborhood. 12 LUDTKE: That's correct, and I understand that. 13 CHAIR YOUNG: And the whole city. 14 LUDTKE: And I understand that. 15 CHAVEZ: The city's gonna benefit from this. 16 BOOKIN: The ordinance itself... 17 LUDTKE: But, what I'm saying is there are other people than just the organization of Las 18 Esperanzas... 19 CHAIR YOUNG: Right, to consider. Let me say this, Commissioner... 20 LUDTKE: And, how many people actually live in there, can you tell me? How many citizens, tax 21 payers, live in that area? 22 BOOKIN: Well, we sent approximately 590 odd letters out...690 odd letters out, something like 23 that. 24 LUDTKE: So, over 500? 25 BOOKIN: Right. From the staff s perspective, the Ordinance is written in the same format as the other Overlay Zones that we currently have... -27- . • • 1 LUDTKE: Mh hm. 2 BODKIN: ...University Avenue Corridor, Lohman Avenue... 3 CHAVEZ: Melilla... 4 BODKIN: ...Mesilla, et cetera. Basically, what we've found with Alameda Depot, we ended up 5 working with...when we started out, we were working with the neighborhood in general trying to get input 6 from large input meetings. And, what we ended up doing with Alameda Depot is having the District's 7 Councillor assigned us a certain number of people, actually. He asked a certain...a number of people to 8 sit in an informal committee. We met with that informal committee for a year and a half, and basically 9 what we tried to do is get a number of different view paints, so that we can work with a small group 10 because it's easier to get direction and to work, and get an actual document put together from that small 11 group, and go back to the big group, and basically use the small group as a sounding board. Go to the 12 big group with a document; it's a lot...more often then not, we get better input, if we have a document for 13 people to actually comment on and get better direction. 14 And, so basically Las Esperanzas acted as that group for us... 15 CHAIR YOUNG: A sounding board? 1 fi BODKIN: ...we were able to work with a specific group, get ideas. We sent, when we had our 17 input meetings, we sent letters out to property the owners and we, actually had the best attendance of 18 any input meetings that I've ever been a part of. That was pretty exciting for us, quite frankly. 19 And, it was...they were very positive meetings. We've...people that weren't interested talking, a 20 lot of them left written comment, some of them call us afterwards, some of us spoke to Las Esperanzas 21 residents, that kind of thing. 22 So, I don't necessary feel, and maybe there's other that disagree, I don't necessarily feel that Las 23 Esperanzas has been the only group that we've worked through, because we've been able to get a 24 different ideas. We've held our six neighborhood input meetings, previous to working with Las 25 Esperanzas, so we had an idea of what the neighborhood was interested in to begin with, and it ranged -28- . • • 1 from anything...everything from land uses, which were people were willing to support, and weren't, to 2 traffic safety in the neighborhood. And, so we knew there was a wide range of issues. 3 Our scope of the area originally was really, really large, and we thought it was gonna get really 4 narrowed down after those input meetings, and I think it was back in 2001 that we had those input...2001, 5 2002, that we had those input meetings. The area got a little bit smaller, but not much smaller, because 6 we had a pretty decent turnout at those input meetings too. 7 What we hoped to do is kind of getting everybody's address and find out who was interested in 8 attending, and that way we could narrow the boundaries. Well, we had people attending from everywhere 9 that we sent letters, and so we weren't really able to shorten the boundaries toa much. So that's one of 10 the reasons why that it is such a large are; it's because of those input meetings that we had such a wide 11 interest. And, again when we had our input meetings just this past February, we had a lot of people 12 from...throughout the area, coming. So, that's where we are in the... 13 LUDTKE: So, you're understand... 14 BOOKIN: ...topic, so this... 15 LUDTKE: ...there's quite a lot people in here, and when you're talking about zoning, and you're 1 B planning out zoning for the this area, 1 mean, via the City, or whatever, it's affecting quite a few people 17 here... 1$ BOOKIN: Mh hm. 19 LUDTKE: ...lives, true real people... 20 BOOKIN: Mh hm. 21 LUDTKE: ...and so you wanna make certain that, I do, I wanna make certain that those people 22 are on board with you. 23 CHAIR YOUNG: The only thing that I would like to say to you, Commissioner Ludtke, there is no 24 official connection between the City and Las Esperanzas, they were just the sounding board, so there's 25 no... -29- • • 1 LUDTKE: (inaudible) a real good partner for the City. 2 BINNEWEG: Henry? 3 CHAIR YOUNG: Yes. 4 BINNEWEG: I want to make the comment that, ten years ago I was involved in the University 5 Corridor... 6 CHAIR YOUNG: Right. 7 BINNEWEG: ...and we were home owners, we never had an official group, we just worked with 8 the City, we never had an official name, but there were a lot of us that were home owners, property 9 owners, and we just got together and I recognize a lot of the element in this neighborhood. And this, it 10 really always struck me as funny is the property line went right through two pieces of my property. One 11 property lies in the Corridor, and the other does not. And, so I've lived on both sides of that, and I can 12 see the benefits. There's a lot of things I can do on one side I can't do on the other side. So it's...it's a 13 workable way to guide development in the neighborhood and as I drove through this area looking, I...I've 14 been a building my whole life, and I can just almost feel the economic pressures, and, you know, I 15 empathize with people who have their homes and they have an establishment of neighborhoods, because 16 as this city is growing, I mean, this is some of the best real estate core, centrally located real estate, and 17 so the sooner that you can get an outline that, you know, sort of, you know, surrounds the wagons here, 18 the more stable this development is going to be. 19 JIM NEVAREZ: Well, the only situation here that I brought to the attention of Las Esperanzas is 20 that grandfather clause has to be (inaudible) in this, and then brought in to the City, the Planning and 21 Zoning also when they have their participation meetings. And, the reason because of that, I say, because 22 a lot of these property owners that are in the historical area of Mesquite, which by the way, we grouped a 23 group and we had been very silent on this, OK? Because the C-2 zone needs to be there from...because 24 if people have properties there, they may not be able to build a business; and, by the way, I'm Jimmy 25 Nevarez from Nevarez Meat Market. -30- • • 1 I have a business and I expressed to the meeting, I don't have to fight here, `cause I already have 2 my business, but people that have property in those areas, they cannot invest in buying and building a 3 business. But, in their generation, they have that golden opportunity not to throw it away. 4 Second, the reason that I am here is because I read some of this documentation that they have, 5 the size windows, and all this. No, no, wait a minute here, this is ridiculous, OK, because Las 6 Esperanzas has not put in $1000 for the business person to go into business. They don't have no say so 7 in that. We have (inaudible) as far as in the zones, to (inaudible), and contractors have, and they have to 8 abide by it. To set any more rules, we don't need no mare rules. We need money, OK? Now, for the 9 people that have property and they want to help them out to redo their homes, the problem there, how 10 much money are they getting from the Federal Government, $3000? That's what it was when I was 11 talking to them. OK. $3000? Hey, you're going to remgdel the historical area, it's gonna cost you more 12 money, than $3000. What are you doing to the poor people in that area? You want to help them, or take 13 their property away? I'm not for that. 14 CHAIR YOUNG: What did you mean by grandfathering? Would you... 15 NEVAREZ: Grandfathering is when you want... 16 CHAIR YOUNG: ...could you be more specific on what areas? 17 NEVAREZ: ...Yes, sir. You want the set backs that you have in the grandfather clause, not the 18 new set backs that you have in the City Ordinance. The set backs are very ridiculous. Now, as I was 19 there, I was told that you could have...Mesquite has enough area where you can have a business and 20 you can use the parking in that street to give that business a little lea way, OK? But not no more. 21 There's a business that's trying to open a tire shop, and the lady, it's a lady, OK? Trying to open a 22 tire shop business, because she wants to fix tires, she has to go through a whole bunch of hog wash. 23 Excuse me, that's why Mesquite Street is C-2 zoned and we don't want to take it off. We want C-2 24 staying, because in G2 zoning you can put anything you wanna put. 25 And that's what I've been fighting for. -31- • • 1 BINNEWEG: I could use a map. 2 8O0KIN: Can I...? 3 CHAIR YOUNG: Sure. 4 BODKIN: ...can I also just make some clarifications? If you take a look at the...you can see that 5 Mesquite Street... 6 CHAVEZ: This is already... 7 BODKIN: ...is staying commercial. There's some list...there's a list of land use changes... 8 NEVAREZ: ...yes, but the C-2 zone, that what we're fighting. We want you to put it back. All the 9 people in that community, they're going to stay C-2 zone. 10 BODKIN: That's what it's been... 11 CHAVEZ: Look at the map... 12 BODKIN: ...proposed. 13 CHAVEZ: ...look at the map, sir. 14 NEVARE: The neighborhood, yeah, but the neighborhood has conditions, as far as 15 neighborhood commercial. 16 CHAVEZ: All of Mesquite is commercial, sir. 17 NEVAREZ: Mh hm. 18 BODKIN: There is a few... 19 NEVAREZ: As far as you're writing in here, that I read, this is what you can put, if I'm not 20 mistaken, all of this is here, barber shop, and everything, coffee shop, OK. I have a processing plant that 21 is not listed on this. Do you know what a processing plant is? 22 CHAVEZ: A meat processing plant? 23 NEVAREZ: Mh hm. No, no. Not a meat processor. A processing plant to process wild game, to 24 process also, what you call the cattle that's been raised in farms that I can process, OK? That is not 25 listed here. That alone is $500,000, if you want us to take that away from here, give me my $500,000, you can do whatever you want to. Plus I have my meat market also. -32- • • 1 BINNEWEG: Where is your meat processing plant, sir? 2 NEVAREZ: The meat market sits on the side, and the processor plant is on the side. 3 BINNEWEG: So it already sits on your property already... 4 NEVAREZ: It's on the side. 5 BINNEWEG: ...and you've been using that processing for a few years... 6 NEVAREZ: For twenty years. 7 BINNEWEG: Well, then you're, why are you worried, sir? You have a grandfather situation. 8 NEVAREZ: Well, because the situation that they're trying to remove the grandfather, if you 9 noticed. 10 BOOKIN: No sir... 11 BINNEWEG: No, there's nothing that says that. 12 BOOKIN: ...they've formed a new section in there... 13 NEVAREZ: No, but also, as grandfather clause means... 14 LUDTKE: Yeah. 15 NEVAREZ: OK? That if I want to sell it and get my money out, because I'm already wanting to 10 retire, I can't do it. 17 LUDTKE: It's 13? 18 81NNEWEG: Sure you can, as long as the person doesn't change the use, right? 19 CAMUNEZ: Yes, as long as the use is not changed, it remains grandfathered. 20 NEVAREZ: OK. 21 CHAIR YOUNG: Right. 22 CAMUNEZ: You cannot change the usage... 23 BINNEWEG: As long as it stays in the generations, or whoever, it stays the same way. It's 24 whoever buys it and wants to change it, then it's their problem. 25 NEVAREZ: Mh hm. -33- • ~ 1 BINNEWEG: OK? It's not in their... 2 NEVAREZ: Well, just to give you another idea. I found on these, there's an empty lot, with the 3 new set backs that we say that it's grandfathered in, you can't do nothing, because it's worthless. You 4 have your set back, up there your five feet corner, on two corners, that gives you very little to set anything 5 on the back; this is on the Evans location, across from me. That is very deadly serious. We're there to 6 make business. This is our livelihood; we don't want to loose that. 7 BINNEWEG: Well, I don't see any business there. It's been sitting vacant for years. 8 NEVAREZ: Right, because of the set backs that it has. 9 BOOKIN: Can I...? 10 CHAIR YOUNG: Sure. 11 BOOKIN: ...try a couple of things out? First of all, with the nonconforming use section in...on 12 page 10g, for the document listed on 3904... 13 NEVAREZ: We don't have any... 14 BOOKIN: ...an existing... 15 NEVAREZ: ...I just got (inaudible). 16 BOOKIN: I need a few extra. It's allowing nonconforming uses to be expanded, altered, or 17 remodeled one time up to 50%. That's a big expansion, so if you wanted to expand your business, even 18 though it would be as a processing... 19 BINNEWEG: Nonconforming. 20 BOOKIN: ...business, it would be a nonconforming use, you would still be able to expand it up to 21 50% 22 NEVAREZ: 32,000 square feet. 23 8O0KIN: 5o you'd be able to expand. 24 NEVAREZ: 15%? 25 CHAVEZ: 50%, that's an incredibly huge building. -34- • • 1 BOOKIN: So we didn't want to take...we didn't want tv take certain land uses away without 2 allowing existing business to still have the right to expand, if they so wanted. And then also, with regards 3 to the set backs... 4 CHAVEZ: OK. This right here, figure five, that I'm seeing here. They enhanced for a map, 5 there's other businesses... 6 BINNEWEG: That's an old map, sir. 7 BOOKIN: Yeah, if you could take a look at the map. 8 BINNEWEG: Take a look at the map we gave you, sir. 9 BOOKIN: Yeah. And, one of the things that we learned at the input meeting... 10 NEVAREZ: Mh hm. 11 BOOKIN: ...that dealt with the zoning issues, and so, that color map... 12 NEVAREZ: Mh hm. 13 BOOKIN: ...is what's been changed since we've...since we held the input meetings. We, 14 basically reviewed all the comments that we got either verbally ar written down. The people in the small 15 groups were writing dawn everybody's comments they received verbally, and then also we got a lot of 16 written comments, and we came back and sat in a group and figured out what was a lot of the big things 17 that were occurring that people were concerned about, or how could we clarify? And, some of the issues 18 came up with the zoning. And, so that colored map you have there has been...is the updated map since 19 the time of the input meetings. 20 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. Let me get back to the Commissioners, then. Other Commissioner 21 comments or questions? Commissioner Ford? 22 FORD: I had a question, a problem, I guess, under Demolition. 23 CHAIR YOUNG: Oh, you too, huh? 24 FORD: An act that destroys or removes in whole or in part the exterior or interior of a building or 25 structure of restored property. If I want to put, if Mr. Nevarez wants to put a picture up on his wall, he has to file a 180 page claim asking for permission of all the various levels of... -35- • • 1 BINNEWEG: No. 2 FORD: ...bureaucracy. 3 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah, that's what that (inaudible) says, if it's historic. 4 LUDTKE: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 5 FORD: You're opening a can of worms that would be astronomically impossible, it would be a 6 nightmare. 7 CHAVEZ: If it's historic, sir. 8 CHAIR YOUNG: Well... 9 FORD: It's in that district and it comes under whatever... 10 CHAVEZ: True, but there's only certain buildings in the Mesquite Historical area that have been 11 federally designated, the State designated... 12 VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 13 CHAIR YOUNG: The definition. 14 BODKIN: The definition? 15 PAT BECKETT: Those are the definitions on that historic, when you're talking about buildings 16 significant buildings or contributing buildings or both. 17 BODKIN: The definition (inaudible) 18 CHAIR YOUNG: Anything designated historic... 19 BODKIN: Yeah, and... 20 ] CHAIR YOUNG: ...whether it's significant or... 21 BODKIN: ...we can definitely clarify that. A lot of the definitions are...we have an 22 architectural...auery fancy, big, huge, architecture book that has a lot of definitions that are some times 23 are hard to get across, and we use a lot of the definitions right out of here, and I totally see what you're 24 saying, and that's... 25 -36- • • 1 FORD: (inaudible) it's very clear and plain to me. 2 BODKIN: Yeah, if you read the demolition section, it's obvious, I think, that that's not the interior 3 walls and everything it's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the complete demolition of a 4 structure where you would need to come in and get a demolition permit for, so we can clarify that 5 definition... 6 NEVAREZ: And that needs to be... 7 CHAIR YOUNG: We'd probably be (inaudible) 8 NEVAREZ: ...say they wanted to move, you brought up to my attention. Say I wanted to move 9 my meat market to the corner, I cannot da it. 10 FORD: You cannot. 11 NEVAREZ: Because, I know my walls on that side are adobe, and I have on the roof, the old, 12 old, sticks that they used... 13 CHAVEZ: Vigas and the latillas. 14 NEVAREZ: ...and I put my wood on top to cover, because I didn't want to the rain to go through, 15 so this is where it touches my toes. 16 CHAIR YOUNG: Any further... 17 NEVAREZ: ...it touches my toes. 18 CHAIR YOUNG: ...anything further, Commissioner Ford? 19 FORD: No, that's all. 20 NEVAREZ: Because, like if I want to make an expansion, I could make it back... 21 BINNEWEG: On the same lot? 22 NEVAREZ: It's the same lot. 23 CHAIR YOUNG: Any other commissioners. 24 BINNEWEG: Yeah, I have concerns about the interior remodeling. I think that it's...that's not 25 significant problem, that people should be able to do interior remodeling. It's what affects the neighborhood and the visuals from the exterior, it's not the City's business. -37- • • 1 CAMUNEZ:: It's the exterior that makes that historical thing that they're wanting to keep, it's not 2 the interior. 3 CHAVEZ: We don't care about the interior. 4 BINNEWEG: Wow many buildings are already designated as significant or historic, because boy, 5 there's an awful lot... 6 CHAVEZ: It comes close to 200. I believe that's over 200 that are federally designated. 7 BINNEWEG: And, they've been depicted that this address... 8 CHAVEZ: Yes, Ma'am. 9 BINNEWEG: ...this address, this address, OK. 10 CHAVEZ: I mean, I live in one. 11 BINNEWEG: Ah ha. 12 CHAVEZ: So, the whole idea is to save the neighborhood. That is the last neighborhood in the 13 United States... 14 SYLVIA CAMUNEZ: Intact. 15 CHAVEZ: ... of this kind. Intact. 16 S. CAMUNEZ: From Santa Fe all the way ta... 17 CHAVEZ: Santa Fe is gone, Albuquerque's was dozed far parking lot, San Antonio only has two 18 blacks and from here to San Diego it...they're all gone. We have the last historical neighborhood. It is as 19 important as the White House or any Federal historical building. And, the reason we're trying to do is to 20 save the neighborhood. We don't want it destroyed... 21 S. CAMUNEZ: To protect it.. 22 CHAVEZ: ...to protect it. 23 BINNEWEG: I know. 24 CHAVEZ: It is to be protected. It's our culture and our heritage. 25 S. CAMUNEZ: It's our roots -38- • • 1 LUDTKE: Does it have to be this large? 2 CHAVEZ: That's how big it was when it was... 3 LUDTKE: I remember seeing something in here that was saying something about this...that they 4 went out and put out the rope and put the stakes in... 5 VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 6 CHAIR YOUNG: It's not that big. 7 LUDTKE: This is not what it showed me. 8 BINNEWEG: That's the Overlay. 9 LUDTKE: Yeah, so that gets back to my point, is all this necessary, this large, to take a stand in 10 the sand and fight for it there? See what I'm saying? 11 BINNEWEG: There's some house... 12 LUDTKE: Besides, some of these people may not want to go by all those guidelines. 13 BOOKIN: So again, that goes back to... 14 CHAVEZ: They'll have to. 15 LUDTKE: ...I mean they'll have to, sure...if we... 16 CHAVEZ: Don't you think it's worth saving a... 17 LUDTKE: Oh, sure. 1$ CHAVEZ: ...an old historic Hispanic neighborhood? 19 (Pause while changing the tape) 20 BOOKIN: Maybe, maybe not. 21 LUDTKE: But, I mean, I just wonder if... 22 CHAVEZ: I've been to Chicago...but there are certain neighborhoods in Chicago that are 23 protected... 24 LUDTKE: Oh yeah. 25 CHAVEZ: ...and you know, I lived in Dallas same 27 years, and there are some huge neighborhoods and that city is not that old, it's only from the late 1800s and there's few historical areas _39_ . • • 1 protected; now, they regret that they tare down so much. Here we are in a part of the State that 2 somehow New Mexico is always... Las Cruces is always, Oh, it's the southern part, you know. Santa Fe 3 and all those other buildings in...from Socorrn are always protected; neighborhoods are protected, they're 4 gold mines. Here we are in one of the oldest intact neighborhoods, that it...it has to be protected. The 5 City is the last to, basically, want to recognize the fact that it is historical neighborhood. The Federal 6 Government has already said...put their stamp that it is historical and it's important and it must be 7 protected. The State of New Mexico has done it, and it's basically, we're asking permission from the City 8 of Las Cruces to designate the fact that that is a historical neighborhood, it is very important. It is not to 9 be touched, not be dozed, not to be changed. 10 The reason we worked so hard nn this document is to protect it; we don't want to make it another 11 Santa Fe. The Santa Fe Historical Development there, ruined Santa Fe; they pushed out all those people 12 in those great old houses and made them into shops. Well, we don't want to do that. We have the 13 Mesquite Street as a commercial area. So what are hopes are, maybe nice shops and galleries and all 14 that stuff that will eventually move in and bring prosperity into the neighborhood. We have the Federal 15 Court House Building, we have it right on the border. Create an ambiance so people will want to go into 16 the Mesquite Historical District. There's incredible amount of history there. Teddy Roosevelt had stayed 17 there, Pat Garrett, and all the...there's Pancho Villa, the whole group...we have all the lists of all the 18 houses. And, we just need to save it, you know? 19 Here we are...the reason that we, as an organization, got involved in this is because a lot of the 20 people in the neighborhood do not trust the City of Las Cruces. 21 One being that the Urban Renewal; tearing down so much of downtown, we don't want the 22 Mesquite Historical Area to be destroyed and torn dawn. It's very important. It's the only intact Hispanic 23 neighborhood left... 24 S. CAMUNF2: From Brownsville Texas, to the coast of California. 25 -40- • ~ 1 CHAVEZ: ...and it's an important...it is so important that it's worth fighting for. Yeah, you right 2 through the neighborhood and you go, "Oh, my gosh, this looks like a barrio, you know, like the slums." 3 Well, it's gone done, and we're trying to build it up and save it. And, it's worth saving. 4 MANNY MARTOS: I think is, my question would be, we're talking about, we want to revitalize the 5 area, my question is what's the cost to revitalize everything, if we're looking from a home owner himself, fi OK? I mean, we have people in that area that can't afford to fix up their houses, that's why you're seeing 7 what you're saying. And now, we're saying, we're going to go ahead and we do go and do a Historical 8 District, now we're gonna have certain rules and requirements that they're gonna have to follow, OK? 9 that they didn't have to follow before, and what we're doing when we're having to comply with other rules 10 and requirements and they've had to revitalize it to a historical structure, I would imagine that there's 11 more of a cost. So, when you're talking, you know... 12 CHAVEZ: No worst than putting aluminum windows versus... 13 MARTOS: ...let me... 14 CHAVEZ: ..go ahead 15 MARTOS: ...so I guess, what I'm saying is these people don't have the money to revitalize their 16 area, but now we've got more rules and regulations that they're gonna have to follow at a minimum, more 17 time consuming, more rules that they're gonna have to follow. Let's assume the cost is the same, OK? I 18 think it's higher, but again, I'm not a contractor, maybe somebody else knows the answer to that. But, I 19 guess, my concern would be, if they can't revitalize the areas right now, now we're gonna have more 20 rules and regulations, are we not really hurting the people that are there. I know the issue here is, we 21 want to preserve this area. I'm concerned with people that live there. 22 BINNEWEG: I see this as a way of preserving the people who live there. What you're not gonna 23 have is you're not gonna have speculation, you're not gonna have people...excuse me, "Santa Feing" this 24 area by making huge, you know, Anglos, excuse me, love to come in and gentrify everything, and they... 25 what it means is that your taxes are gonna go up... -41- • • 1 S. CAMUNEZ: That's what we want... 2 MARTOS: Well, my theory is that these people don't have the money, OK? right now, if we're 3 really are saying, "hey, we're looking at an area, OK? and we want to revitalize it," I mean, the people 4 who have been living there hadn't been able to revitalize it because maybe they can't afford to do this... 5 BINNEWEG: This is not to force people, it's just that they're setting wide lines; if they do come 6 up with funds and they have the funds to restore the homes, but there's guidelines that... 7 MARTOS: But my questions is this though... 8 BINNEWEG: ... that's the way it needs to be to save it... 9 MARTOS: ...my question is this, if the cost to revitalize it based on the new regulations is higher, 10 than the current amount that would be required for them to do it now, we're actually now forcing them this 11 person to save more, and so therefore, it would take longer far them to revitalize the area; if the cost is 12 higher, that's the question. I don't know. I'm asking. 13 S. CAMUNEZ: Well, isn't...aren't you all working towards grants and State monies and this 14 time... 15 CHAVEZ: And, that's what Las Esperanzas is trying to do, create a way to get funding for these 16 homes to get restored, for these people. Government funds, State funds, to help restore the properties. 17 That's how a lot of historical areas in the country do to save these buildings. 18 MARTOS: Well, apparently, you've been describing the rest of the country that didn't really care 19 about historical areas, so there must have been a shift somewhere along the line, and, I mean, because 20 we're the only ones trying to save it, right? I mean, San Antonio decided to get rid of theirs. Santa Fe 21 decided to get rid of their... 22 CHAVEZ: It's about the bottom line, it's about the buck. 23 BINNEWEG: Yes. 24 CHAVEZ: That's all it is. It's about the dollar, OK? Those places don't care about historical 25 stuff. Theyjust though, "We need a parking lot, so we're gonna put asphalt on it." Just like a lot of downtown is, it's asphalt. -42- • • 1 MARTOS: Let me ask you a question? When you're talking about this money coming from the 2 State, I think we need to educate the people in the community so they understand what they're getting 3 into. Because a lot of the stuff, this money may not be free money to them, OK? 4 CHAIR YOUNG: Yes sir? 5 BECKETT: I'm Pat Beckett, owner of COAS Books, and I'm a good neighbor, hopefully to the 6 Mesquite District. Some of my ancestors lived in that district. My mother was a Lucero. I'm gonna give 7 you a little bit of historical perspective that I don't think many of you in this roam have. I was Chairman of 8 the State Cultural Review Committee back in the 705 and the 80s. And, literally told the Board, I was the 9 only south of Albuquerque, we were going to do some surveys in Southern New Mexico, for I wasn't 10 going to work on anything in northern New Mexico, and that's when they funded the surveys to the Depot 11 in the Mesquite District. 12 Now, I've heard a lot of different things, you're talking about distribution of that map, well, how it 13 worked is after everything was done, it got placed on the State's Register, which was more inclusive, well, 14 I shouldn't say inclusive, it extended larger than what the Federal guidelines would allow on that. And, 15 basically what you see on that map is what they considered The District, and I think that's where you're 16 coming from. 17 CHAVEZ: Yes, sir. 18 BECKETT: I heard a comment on interiors. This district was placed on the district by exteriors, 19 nothing about interiors. 20 BOOKIN: That's right. 21 BINNEWEG: Right. 22 BECKETT: One thing that I don't know whether you understand is that anybody who owns a 23 historic property can literally bulldoze that thing down and the only thing that they'll suffer is the removal 24 from the Register, and I think this is what you're trying to do, is make it harder to do something like that 25 with a historic building. Am I correct? -43- • • 1 CHAVEZ: Yes. 2 BECKETT: And I understand where some property owners are coming from, and it's happened 3 to me on a couple of pieces of property that I've owned, is that I bought it because it was C-2. And 4 there's apartment in there that we were gonna connect; there's a resident center for a C-2 piece of 5 property that we had. I paid mare for it, and I lost it. And, I can see on that Historical Zoning for C-2, now 6 I don't know, I speak from ignorance on this, but it's...l see a neighborhood commercial. Is that a C-1? Is 7 that a C-2? 8 BODKIN: It's a combination, it's taking out some of the more high intensity uses like the body 9 shops, the tire shops, those kinds of things that people... 10 MARTOS: So you are changing then from what it currently is? It will no longer be a C-2 11 because you are changing the zoning as far as... 12 NEVAREZ: That's what I was talking about... 13 CHAIR YOUNG: Let me point out something too... 14 BODKIN: Right. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: ...this fall under the 2001 Zoning Code that was just approved. Many of the 16 properties have not been changed yet, as far as the zoning, it will come over the course of the next few 17 years to be in accordance with the 2001 Zoning Code rather than the previous Zoning Code. 18 NEVAREZ: You have a one machine shop there, you have Alex Body Shop there... 19 BINNEWEG: Right. 20 NEVAREZ: ...which... 21 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah, but, see, everything will be taken into account, and that would be 22 changed anyway, regardless of this... 23 NEVAREZ: it won't be Grandfathered? 24 SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 25 NEVAREZ: What if they wanted to sell the business? -44- • • 1 BINNEWEG: If they sold it to another person that's going to do a body shop, they can't let them 2 use it. You're not gonna have another guy down the street opening up another body shop because you 3 won't be able...the existing ones will be taken care of. You're just not gonna be inundated with tire shops 4 every other black, or body shops every other shops. Because, really, for a neighborhood commercial you 5 can't, you know, there's a finite number of body shops you need in your neighborhood there. 6 NEVAREZ: What if your need at the same time it becomes competitive. That's why I'm there 7 because I'm competitive to the big stores. That's what I'm getting across, you see. And, the tire shops, it 8 is competitive too. The one that is trying to negotiate to get a permit, I had to use them, they took their 9 time to go and put air and fix the problem that I had, now that's the shop that will do it. That shows you 10 that they are there to do the job. 11 CHAVEZ: The reason we have the tire thing, it's an environmental issue, it's not so much that we 12 want to push the business out of there, but it is an environmental issue. Tires are dangerous... 13 NEVAREZ: In what respect, sir? 1~} CHAVEZ: And, sir, have you ever tit one? 15 MARTOS: Nobody is burning tires there. 16 CHAVEZ: I know, but the danger of the fact that it can happen. 17 SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 18 CHAVEZ: Yeah, but the chemicals that come out of a tire are sa toxic... 19 NEVAREZ: But not one is burning the tires. 20 CHAVEZ: I know. 21 BOOKIN: If I can just say something. One of the reasons tire shops, body shops, those kinds of 22 things were removed...proposed to be removed is because when we had the public input meetings back 23 December 2001, June 2002, we got a lot of comments that they would like to see uses that were more in 24 tune to the neighborhood, and a lot of people didn't feel that tire shops, body shops, those kinds of things 25 were in line with what they wanted to have in their neighborhood. They wanted to see... -~F5- • • 1 NEVAREZ: Those are their roots...those are roots that you're clipping off, and you can't clip 2 them off. 3 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, let's get back to what is before us tonight; we could talk the rest of the 4 night an these issues. Lisa, I have one thing that I would like to clear up. Under our definitions, under 5 Certificate of Demolition, it mentions that the certificate will be issued by the Mesquite Street Design 6 Review Board? 7 BOOKIN: Oh, you're right. 8 CHAIR YOUNG: And yet in the body that never shows up. 9 BOOKIN:B Yeah, that was original part of the draft that was changed, that I'm afraid, we need to 10 the definitions, obviously again. Nv, the definition...the demolition process would be through...the regular 11 demolition process, you go get your...apply for your permit, in this case you get assigned a sticker in front 12 of your house, to let people know what's going on for a period of 180 days; once that is up, if nobody's 13 made any offers that are of substantial interest, or you have definite plans, came in and get your 14 demolition permit and proceed. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: My other comment concerning the demolition, I like the preservation of a 16 historic district, but I'm also a property rights advocate, and I personally thing that 180 days is excessive, I 17 don't think it needs to exceed three months. 18 BINNEWEG: Yeah, six months is... 19 CHAIR YOUNG: That's a long time. 20 BINNEWEG: You can actually get it the next day... 21 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 22 81NNEWEG: ...if you're 23 CHAIR YOUNG: Any other Board members? 24 FORD: And this can be prolonged for six months, after six months, after six months, if it's played 25 correctly. -46- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah. 2 Yes, Commissioner Camu~iez? 3 CAMUNEZ: { have a question, and I guess Mr. Nevarez must be from this area on up, 4 somewhere. I'm not sure. 5 NEVAREZ: Mesquite? 6 CAMUNEZ: But, because I see so much commercial in this area here. Could they cut down the 7 preservation to where it ends right there, and leave all this commercial out of it? 8 MARTOS: 1 can, well, it's the opposite. The more commercial is south of there, if you were 9 holding the map...or north of there actually. 10 LUDTKE: That's right. 11 CAMUNEZ: That's why I say... 12 MARTOS: That's what I'm saying. 13 CAMUNEZ: This is going north. 14 MARTOS: No, no, no, no. She wants to. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: That's north. 16 CAMUNEZ: This is north up here, 17 MARTOS: That's north, then I stand corrected, that's south. Most of the commercial are from 18 there down. 19 CAMUNEZ: OK, but look at this strip right here. I'm assuming this is Mesquite Street. 20 SEVERAL PEOPLE: Yes. 21 CAMUNEZ: OK, so that's all commercial, but it sounds to me like the people that have 22 commercial that are complaining are from this point... 23 MARTOS: No. 24 CAMUNEZ: ...north. 25 MARTOS: They're from that point down. -47- • • 1 CAMUNEZ: Down? 2 MARTOS: Yes M `am. 3 BINNEWEG: They kept them commercial. 4 CFiAVEZ: We kept them commercial. They're commercial. 5 MARTOS: I'm not complaining about that. But she's saying that it's from there up, and it's not, 6 it's from there down. 7 S. CAMUNEZ: We kept that commercial 8 NEVAREZ: And then Martos is a little further also. 9 S. CAMUNEZ; We kept him too. 10 CHAVEZ: We kept him too. 11 NEVAREZ: And the grocery, yeah, but you see, what you're...this is what we've been fighting 12 this C-2 zoning, we were hearing that in a C-2 zoning you could put anything you wanted to put. 13 CAMUNEZ: But my questions is, are these people that have commercial there, are they apposed 14 to belonging to this historical area? That's my question. 15 NEVAREZ: The question is haw you ward it, this is what we're here for, to check it. 16 LUDTKE: Who knows? That was my questions originally. 17 NEVAREZ: But, we have not been in contact, today we were informed and there's same areas 18 here that are very green. You're talking about you have to put a size window that corresponds to Las 19 Esperanzas, wait a minute here... 20 BINNEWEG:: Na ha. 21 NEVAREZ: ...We are here.. 22 CAMUNEZ: Well, I don't see, excuse me Mr. Nevarez, but I don't see where that really has any 23 bearing on what we're trying to discuss right now...is size of windows and all of this... 24 NEVAREZ: Because it includes it in it. 25 -48- • • 1 CAMUNEZ: ...that's why I'm saying, because this northern part is so much commercial, and 2 seems, from listening to you all, it sounds like some of these people here don't want to belong to this 3 preservation issue, so that' my questions to you... 4 NEVAREZ: Right. We don't want to be part of it... 5 CAMUNEZ: If you don't want to be part of it, if not, why can't they just work on it to eliminate all 6 of this commercial part of it? 7 NEVAREZ: This is why we have... $ BINNEWEG: Because, there's a lot of commercial. Look in this area, there's the BFW Hall, 9 there's the Green House, there's... 10 NEVAREZ: Right. 11 BINNEWEG: ...there's a lot of pockets that... 12 CAMUNEZ: Well, I understand that, but are we so interested in preserving the historical, or are 13 we interested in preserving the neighborhood? 14 CHAVEZ: That's right. 15 CAMUNEZ: That's my question. 16 CHAIR YOUNG: Mr. Nevarez, if I may... 17 NEVAREZ: Yes sir. 1$ CHAIR YOUNG: ...go ahead and take this, read it all. I've read it; I don't recall anything about 19 window size. 20 CAMUNEZ: I don't either. 21 CHAIR YOUNG: It's not in there. So, read it aver, check the document, and then you'll be able 22 to speak at the public hearing. 23 BINNEWEG: I think the point about window sizes is for historic preservation of buildings, you 24 can't knock out a window and put in something three times bigger because, you know... 25 SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) -49- • • 1 CAMUNEZ: It' taking away... 2 CHAIR YOUNG: And it is exterior. 3 BINNEWEG: They're not telling you...dictating the size of the window, they're saying you have to 4 keep things in proportion. If you have a, you know, a certain style, especially against a historical register, 5 you're Hat gonna be able to put a big plate glass windows... 6 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, that's what I'm talking about. 7 BINNEWEG: ...and things like that 8 S. CAMUNEZ: Unless he wants to loose the status of lasing historical. 9 BINNEWEG: Yeah, if you don't wanna have your home as a historical structure, you can do 10 whatever you want to... 11 NEVAREZ: I have big windows, it's a meat market, I have big windows. 12 SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 13 LUDTKE: (inaudible) He's talking about the definitions for exterior remodeling... 14 BOOKIN: Not according to what we have here. 15 LUDTKE: ...exterior renovation. 16 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, so Commissioners any other questions or comments? 17 I assume this is to go forward at the next meeting in April? 18 BOOKIN: We have...that is our plan, for April 27~h 19 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. Commissioners that's... 20 FORD: Not at the March meeting? 21 CHAIR YOUNG: No. April. 22 Does that sound OK with everyone? 23 BINNEWEG: I would say that if people here tonight have huge, still, concerns and 24 considerations, they should probably draft a Hate to staff to try and get it explained or point out, if it still 25 bothers you (inaudible). That's how everybody here operates, we can only go with input. -50- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. And then we give you a month before the meeting. 2 BINNEWEG: And, I'll say from experience, that even with the University Corridor. I was an one 3 the first people on the committee and then 1 moved off it, and then I put one of my buildings, a 130 year 4 old building. It was just a very modest, square, adobe that, if you looked at it...l had a friend ask me why 5 I didn't pull those down because it's zoned R-3, I had 30 apartments. And, I decided to renovate the 6 building and I didn't find it any problem at all going through this (inaudible) because, I mean, as a rental, I 7 wasn't going to put in wood Pella windows and all that, because you don't do that. So, I found there's a 8 lot of flexibility as long as I had a plan and it...l think it looks better, it certainly looks better than it did, you 9 know, ten years ago. So... 10 CHAIR YOUNG: I'll attest to that. 11 BINNEWEG: Yeah, it's not an unworkable thing. It's just...it's gonna keep people from...it's 12 gonna keep the rascals from coming in there and just bulldozing everything down in order to 13 accommodate whatever the latest trend. It's just like what happened with the downtown. They bulldozed 14 all that down to accommodate a trend that everybody regrets... 15 CAMUNEZ: Right. 16 BINNEWEG: ...and... 17 NEVAREZ: Well, I'm not here...l know that Las Esperanzas are doing for them too, OK? I'm not 18 saying that they're not doing a job, but at the same time what we want to do is keep everybody included... 19 BINNEWEG: Mh hm. 20 NEVAREZ: ...not to step on them and push them out of the way. That's why we're here. 21 S. CAMUNEZ: But we do send out notice... 22 BINNEWEG: We send out notice and letter, everyone was very aware. 23 NEVAREZ: I never got one, see? There's people from the A-1 Machine Shop, and Alex 24 (inaudible), they didn't get one. And you're excluding... 25 CHAVEZ: Well, we're going by what the City's records are, as far as addresses, so -51- • • 1 VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 2 CHAVEZ: Well... 3 BINNEWEG: Is he a registered voter? 4 CHAVEZ: Is he a registered voter? 5 MARTOS: Yes. 6 NEVAREZ: I didn't get one either. 7 BOOKIN: Is he the property owner? 8 CHAVEZ: The property owner... 9 MARTOS: Not my dad, he didn't get one either, and we've got about six houses in that whole 10 area, so I'm surprised. 11 BINNEWEG: It's very unusual because we sent... 12 MARTOS: Well, I'm sorry, but we didn't get one. Well, what's a little surprising here, and we 13 thought it was a little unusual too, I though we had a meeting at City Hall. That's what the newspaper 14 said. 15 BOOKIN: Yeah... 16 SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME (Unintelligible) 17 CHAVEZ: It was the reported that did that. We had nothing to do with that. 18 MARTOS: I understand, but maybe that's the way we communicate. Maybe that's why we don't 19 know what's going on. I guess, you know, we live at 1155 N. Mesquite, if you want to send me a letter, 20 Manny Martos send it directly to me and my dad's attention, OK? And, we'll be more than happy to 21 participate in the meetings (inaudible). 22 BINNEWEG: Do have the location, so I can add to Martos? Do you have a revised one? 23 MARTOS: Now, let me ask a question, you say you're considering the possibility of maybe 24 pulling this out before some of the owners here say they don't want to be in the historical district and I 25 know there's two issues here. One of them of commercial side, and the other one is also the historical district. Because that maybe something that we could talk about and just exclude us altogether on some -52- N ~ J • • 1 of those properties, and I can let you know what properties. Again, I just...and I'm not sure maybe it's just 2 that I'm a little concerned about there's too much oversight and then all of a sudden I can't do anything 3 with our properties, and so... 4 CHAVEZ: Well, that's a problem when you end up being in a historical neighborhood. 5 NEVAREZ: How much... 6 CHAVEZ: If you want...if you're proud enough of your neighborhood, you have to do... 7 MARTOS: I was just referring to what she suggested, and so, I would like to make that request. 8 NEVAREZ: Their (inaudible) is this, the funding that these people would be receiving. Is it 9 $3,000? 10 CHAVEZ: Well, sir, I don't know what you're talking about, funding? 11 BOOKIN: I don't know what funding? 12 NEVAREZ: Well, to help them out to remodel their homes. 13 CHAVEZ: Who's gonna give you that? 14 NEVAREZ: The Federal Government, that's what you say on the grants. That's what I've been 15 hearing. 16 S. CAMUNEZ: How much is the price of the grant that they gave to the Community Rehab? 1T CAMUNEZ:: Well, it depends. 18 S. CAMUNEZ: On their income right? 19 CAMUNEZ: Yeah. 20 NEVAREZ: OK. so what is the highest? That's what my question is. 21 CAMUNEZ: I think it $10,000, isn't it? 22 BINNEWEG: I think the Federal Rehab program is more than that. 23 BOOKIN: It's something like $25,000 or something. 24 NEVAREZ: $25,000 to remodel. 25 -53- • • 1 BODKIN: As a part of the home program, but there's qualifications, income eligibilities to do that. 2 There's another program that is weatherization? I don't even know if the City still does weatherization 3 any more. And maybe that's... 4 CHAIR YOUNG: GDBG. 5 BODKIN: Yeah, and you're right... 6 NEVAREZ: And, the reason we're looking... 7 BODKIN: ...and I'm wondering if that maybe that's what you might be thinking of, it's a small 8 amount of money... 9 NEVAREZ: Well, what bothers me, you see, is that a lot of these people cannot afford to get into 10 debt, they're old enough already, you see... 11 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 12 NEVAREZ: ...and to put their house that they have worked so many years for, and time takes 13 them away, or the City takes them away... 14 CHAIR YOUNG: Wowever, that's a totally separate issue. 15 BINNEWEG: Yeah... 16 CHAIR YOUNG: That is not germane to what we're talking about here. 17 NEVAREZ: OK. 18 BINNEWEG: Yeah. 19 MARTOS: Unless the cost is higher, because of the new rules that you guys are implementing, 20 then it would be applicable because, if somebody can fix their house and spend $3,000 compared to 21 6,000, because of the new rules, or what have you, then it is relevant, OK? If you're saying... 22 BINNEWEG: Only if they have a historically significant home. 23 BODKIN: Well, and also. 24 MARTOS: (inaudible) because the whole issue here is, we're trying to revitalize the area. We're 25 saying, "look, if you do this, number one we're (inaudible), number two we're gonna revitalize it because we're gonna have to get some monies, or grants or loans, or what have you, and they thing they're gonna -54- • • 1 be able to revitalize their home, if in fact, if it could be historical and, if in fact, it's gonna increase the cost 2 (inaudible) 3 CAMUNEZ: This to me is ridiculous. 4 NEVAREZ: ...than renovating that home, having we created more of a burden on that home 5 owner. That's where I'm coming from. 6 BECKETT: Can I say something here? 7 CHAIR YOUNG: Sure. 8 BECKETt: Unless the State has changed its regulations in the last few years, one of the 9 benefits of having it on the Register, is a tax incentive. If you put...send into the State Historic 10 Preservation Office, and say, "this is what we want to do." It will go before the Cultural Design Review 11 Committee and if they approve that, they'll give the go ahead, and after it's done, you show that you've 12 maintained that original historical integrity, and then there's a tax credit. The money that you spent on 13 that thing can be taken off of your property taxes. 14 MARTOS: But then there's the other issue, I mean, the money that we have to spend, I guess, 15 it's the issue. We're talking about revitalizing the neighborhood, OK? 16 CHAVEZ: What money do you have to spend? You don't have to spend anything. 17 MARTOS: Well, I know, but... 18 BOOKIN: Well, can I... 19 MARTOS: ...if we're revitalizing the area, that's one of your selling points. I mean, you're going 20 to revitalize it, the issue is that we need to make sure that these people can afford to revitalize it. That's 21 all I'm saying. 22 BOOKIN: And I just like to clarify, the only time you need to go before the Review Design Board 23 and meet certain criteria and get "approval, " is for new development. So, if you've got a vacant lot and 24 you're building something new, or you're adding more than 30% to your lot. So, if you're adding a 30%, I 25 mean, even a small bathroom is probably not going to be 30% of your primary structure. -55- • • 1 MARTOS: I thought it said here, if you change the size of the windows, since you're changing... 2 BODKIN: No. 3 MARTOS: ...the structure... 4 BODKIN: No, this is part of the... 5 MARTOS: OK, my misunderstanding... 6 BODKIN: Yeah. 7 MARTOS: OK. 8 BODKIN: ...and if you just take a lank at it and just give me a call, or give one of us a call... 9 MARTOS: Can I have one of your cards, or, you know, just so... 10 BODKIN: ...Oh yeah, let me go get a bunch... 11 MARTOS: ...and then, like I said, I didn't have this or I would have read it, so some of the 12 questions may not be appropriate... 13 BODKIN; And, also there's...there was a concern about...) also just want to clarify real quick 14 too. There's also concern about setbacks. The setbacks that are being proposed there, are completely 15 different than the existing setback. I think, Mr. Nevarez, that you were talking about. Take a look at the 16 setbacks. They're completely different. We're proposing no front setback, right now, none. So, that is 17 completely different... 18 MARTOS: OK. 19 BINNEWEG: The whole part of it. 20 BODKIN: Yeah, so take a look at that and see what you think about it and take a look at maybe 21 some properties and kind of picture in your mind what that might mean to those properties and... 22 MARTOS: It'll help. 23 BODKIN: Yeah. 24 KYLE: It's much more generous than the current... 25 BODKIN: Then current... -56- . • • 1 MARTOS: But, when it was changed over here... 2 BOOKIN: It was never changed... 3 SEVERAL PEOPLE IN UNISON: It was never changed. 4 BOOKIN: ...over here. 5 CAMUNEZ: It was a misprint. It was a misprint that... 6 MARTOS: (inaudible) we're down here talking in behalf of Martas Mexican Interiors, and Martos 7 Recycling Center now, and once again, we're talking about being "grandfathered" in so it doesn't really $ change this zoning per se, other than for new owners coming in and they're going to set new businesses. 9 I'm assuming that those properties there, where the business is at, would not be historical ar designated 10 historical anyway, so it really wouldn't apply to those. Now, there area a few houses in the other direction 11 that may... 12 CHAVEZ: South of you. 13 CAMUNEZ: No. 14 CHAVEZ: South of... 15 MARTOS: South or North? 16 CHAVEZ: Yeah. That there's some old houses, yes sir. 17 MARTOS: OK. 1$ UNKNOWN: They're historical, I can tell you that. 19 MARTOS: Anyway, the market? 20 UNKNOWN: I can tell you that. Yes, It's old. 21 S. CAMUNEZ: I don't see how they're gonna be ready to go to the next meeting. It seems like... 22 CAMUNEZ: It's 27 of April. 23 CHAVEZ: We gotta group that we worked a lot. Thirty days is... 24 5. CAMUNEZ: We met every week. 25 NEVAREZ: I can see that you've been working hard, I can say that. The thing is to the meetings that I've been going, and they don't want the "grandfather" clause. In fact, they planned this one, you -57- •- • • 1 know, because of the situation of the apartment that they built there by Madrid, they went into the 2 "grandfather" clause, and he told me we don't want something like that here for here anymore. OK? 3 Then,. I was talking to them and they were telling me that they didn't want trailers in that area, so it's 4 against me. Hatch had a big law suit, you cannot stop trailers... 5 CHAIR YOUNG: That's true. 6 NEVAREZ: ...that's what people can afford, that's all they can afford. 7 BOOKIN: Manufactured homes. 8 CHAVEZ: Manufactured homes. 9 BINNEWEG: Yeah, we don't call them trailers anymore. 10 CHAVEZ: I wanted to get that, and that's where I'm mad at that, because people need to make 11 the way they can with the hardships that they have. 12 HERCULANO FERRALEZ: You're probably wondering why I'm so quiet. Well, I only want to 13 pass this to you. Be sure that you always remember that you're dealing with two different things here. 14 We're dealing with material things, property, homes, regulations, and you're dealing with people. Keep 15 that in mind, because you might forget. That's all. 16 CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. 17 Let's see, that's all that we had on the agenda for this meetings. Let see, am I wrong? 1$ Is there a motion to adjourn? 19 CAMUNEZ: I make a motion. 20 21 22 23 24 25 -58- CHAIR YOUNG: We're adjourned. Meeting adjourned at 8:00 p.m.