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01/20/2004WS.. -' rs -..... ` ~ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 BOARD MI~MBERS PRESENT: 10 Henry Young, Chair 11 William Ludtke 12 Bruce Buchman 13 Quentin Ford 14 Elizabeth Camunez 15 STAFF PRESENT: • PLANING AND ZONING COMMISSION WORK SESSION FOR THE CITY OF LAS CRUCES Room 101, City Office Center January 20, 2004 6:00 pm 16 Robert Kyle, Planner 17 Lani Ruth McCarson, Planner 18 Kirk Clifton, Planner 19 Brian Harper, Associate Planner 20 Vince Banegas, bevelopment Administrator 21 Charles Harwood, Project Planner 22 Barry Cole, Electrical Inspector 23 Carmen Alicia Lucero, Recording Secretary 24 25 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, let's go ahead and commence our meeting then, for this evening. We'll go right to Roman Numeral II; the presentation by the Open Space Task Force. -1- • • 1 HELEN ZAGONA: Thank you. 2 LUDTKE: Let me get you a copy of the agenda. 3 BUCHMAN: This is very important. 4 ZAGONA: OK. 5 LUDTKE: And they come from all directions. 6 ZAGONA: Good evening. Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Helen Zagona and I 7 am a member of the Citizens Task Force for Open Space Preservation. This is a grass roots 8 organization... (Phone ringing) 9 YOUNG: Sorry. Go ahead. 10 ZAGONA: This is a grass roots organization that was started about four years ago and it grew 11 out of a committee from the League of Women Voters on Land Use Planning in our area. And, I'm here 12 tonight to talk to you just very briefly, it'll take me five minutes, it won't take very long, to tell you about our 13 Open Space and Trail Network. This is a project of the Citizen's Taskforce that has been in existence 14 now for about a year. And, what we're doing is, we're going around to the various commissions of the 15 Planning and Zoning for County, and City, and ETZ, and we will be going to...we went to the City Council, 16 we will also talk to the County Commissioners and tell them a little bit about our progress with the Open 17 Space and Trail Network. 18 The Network grew out of an application for technical assistance submitted to the National Parks 19 Services, Rivers, and Trails Conservation Assistance Program by the Citizens Taskforce in the summer of 20 2002. In that application, we proposed the creation of a network including representatives from various 21 organizations and entities working on Open Space issues in order to coordinate the planning and 22 management efforts in our area. 23 And, in your packet, you should have a one page kind of summary of what I'm gonna say; I'm not 24 gonna read the whole thing for you because it's all there, but I just want to go aver a few points. As I 25 said, the network is now a year old; it was established in November of 2002. The definition of the _2_ • • 1 network; it is a gathering of representatives from both government and private sectors who meet to 2 coordinate planning and management efforts for trails and open space in Dona Ana County. The 3 participants are listed in your sheet. There you'll see that the City of Las Cruces is a member. We have 4 certain planning...people from the planning department come on a regular basis. We also have other 5 governmental entities, the County, the Town of Mesilla, the MPO, the Bureau of Land Management and 6 New Mexico State University; all participate on a regular basis. 7 Then we have private organizations, the Las Cruces Home Builders Association, the Southwest $ Environmental Center, Wilderness Alliance, Nature Conservancy, Back Country Horsemen, and then 9 occasionally other specific groups, recreational groups will be in attendance, and then of course, 10 ourselves, The Citizens Task Force, and the National Park Service, who...and we're basically the 11 facilitators for this network. We don't tell them what to do; they reach decisions by consensus pretty 12 much. 13 We meet every month, the third Wednesday; we're meeting tomorrow morning, for example at 14 10 O'clock, we meet in the Braningan Cultural Center down on the Downtown Mall. 15 Our Mission Statement; this is a statement that the group, the Network, with all of these entities 16 came up with to make sure that they were on the same page, and their efforts would be going in the same 17 direction. 18 The Network Statement; together we work to promote the establishment and long-term 19 management of a system of Open Space and Trails in Dor'Sa Ana County. 20 Now, usually, when we make these presentations we're asked, what is the definition of Open 21 Space and it's actually harder than what you might think. It's Open Space; is a concept that a lot of 22 different people have different ideas about. The Citizens Task Force feels that Open Space is an area of 23 land or water, which is essentially natural, and is set aside for public benefit. However, there are a lot If 24 people who would include farmland in this description, and this doesn't match some of this. So, the 25 Network itself has not nailed down an exact definition, but we're sort of in this area; we're talking about -3- • • 1 natural space and farm land for the most part. 2 I'd like to talk just very briefly about the accomplishments of the Network. The Network serves 3 two very important functions. One of those functions is that it creates a frame work, or an opportunity for 4 networking. We have all of these various governmental entities with all of these programs going on and 5 it's a chance for us to talk to each other about what's going on. Just the other day, I was at City Council 6 and the Mayor said, how is it that the City of Albuquerque owns all that land out there on the East mesa? 7 You know, well, the City of Albuquerque set up some kind of deal with the Bureau of Land Management 8 and I suspect that there wasn't complete communication on the whole planning effect. So what we have 9 is a big batch of land that the City of Albuquerque owns out there. 10 So, it gives us a chance to network. It gives all the governmental entities a chance to talk to each 11 other about open space issues; which is important. The other thing that they do is, we have three 12 subgroups. We have what we call division subgroups, which is putting together a...with some funding 13 from the National Park Service, a brochure which is going to describe this program that we are talking 14 about, and that subgroup is also working on a map where we can identify areas of open space in our 15 areas that we really would like to see protected. 16 And, a system of trails; and I'll tell you about that in a second. Trails, the idea is that you would 17 connect various open spaces so you can have hiking, bicycling, and other types of recreation from one 1$ area to another. 19 Then, the second group is the Funding and Management group. Right now that group is working 20 on funding and long-term management, which is a very key and critical issue in open space planning. 21 And, we're looking at the possibility of either forming a Land Trust here, or coordinating with one of the 22 Land Trusts that currently exists in New Mexico now. And, so we're in discussions about what is the best 23 thing to do there. 24 The final subgroup is the Implementation group, and what we're doing in that group is we have 25 picked an on-the-ground project that we are hoping to promote and bring to fruition. -4- ~ • 1 The project that they are looking at in that subgroup is the MPO Trail Plan. The Metropolitan 2 Planning Organization has actually passed a conceptual plan to have trails going up the major arroyos 3 around the City and on the IBID drains, so that we will have a basically, a network of open space areas 4 for passive recreation. That is, non-vehicular recreation, hiking, and biking, and bird watching and that 5 sort of thing. So, what they're doing is they are hoping to get this plan to a point where we can implement 6 it. 7 The arroyos are very important for protecting the...we see those as important habitat far wildlife 8 and we also would like to see, as I said, connections between one recreation area and another. 9 And, basically, that's my presentation. I am here, if you would like to answer...ask any questions, 10 then I'll hopefully answer them. 11 FORD: You mentioned something about your area, or your region. What is your region? Is it 12 Dona Ana County? 13 ZAGONA: Doha Ana County. 14 FORD: The whole thing? 15 ZAGONA: Well, you know, we started out...the Citizens Task Force addresses all of Dona Ana 16 County, but the Network itself, this group of organizations, is really focusing on this area of Dor"~a Ana 17 County, including the River Corridor, which goes up like to Hatch. And then down south of town, and then 18 the greater Las Cruces area is what they're mainly focusing on. 19 Yes sir? 20 BUCHMAN: Helen, I have a question. I just happened to glance at it, last week, I think. In the 21 Bulletin, they had a proposed map of trails, I think. Are you people involved with that? 22 ZAGONA: Well, if it was the map of the MPO Trail Plan, this is what we are really, really hoping 23 to implement. 24 BUCHMAN: You say, MPO Trail Plan... 25 ZAGONA: The Metropolitan Planning Organization is the...is a governmental entity that includes the City of Las Cruces, the Town of Mesilla, and Dora Ana County. And, they plan all of the roads that -5- • ~ 1 are going to be built; it's mainly a transportation entity. And, really, because they plan where all the roads 2 go, they have a lot to say about the future growth of the area. 3 BUCHMAN: OK, this one... don't think has the...yeah, there we go, yeah. 4 ZAGONA: OK. Well, see, I haven't seen this. 5 BUCHMAN: OK 6 ZAGONA: But, and so, I can't without reading it, 1 can't... 7 BUCHMAN: OK. 8 ZAGONA: ...say that... 9 BUCHMAN: OK, that's all right, I was just wondering if you were involved in that because it 10 seemed like such a good idea... 11 ZAGONA: Yeah... 12 BUCHMAN: ...something we need here. The map... 13 ZAGONA: This is being done by the City of Las Cruces already. Carol McCall has been working 14 on it, from the Planning Department, and she gave a presentation last week to the Mayor and Council in a 15 work session... 16 BUCHMAN: Mh hm. 17 ZAGONA: ...and I think the City is enthusiastic about this Corridor, this River Corridor. And, of 18 course, this is part of what the Network would be...would be... 19 BUCHMAN: Working with... 20 ZAGONA:...doing. Yeah. 21 BUCHMAN: OK, all right. 22 ZAGONA: Any other questions? 23 CHAIR YOUNG: For the benefit of our, especially our new Commissioner, would one of you staff 24 like to expound a bit upon what has already been done? Of course the Triviz area, and the River Corridor 25 that's already in existence, and the future plans to connect east and west with those two. KYLE: I'll attempt. We don't have an MPO staff person... -6- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Yes. 2 KYLE: ...with us tonight, so...When I was on the Bicycle Facilities Advisory Committee, I know 3 we worked on the plan, the trail plans, and we looked at it and gave it our blessings from the bicycle 4 standpoint, but down the end, to touched on it, is it's an inter-connected set of trails utilizing primarily the 5 major arroyos to get outside of the City and into the ...from the ridges. But again, coordinating with EBID, 6 laterals and ditches within the City to provide the ability to arrive by horse, a bike, hike, around town. I 7 haven't seen the latest final adopted copy, but we had...at the time we were talking with...we were 8 working with...they'd done a very good job of connecting all aspects of the City north, south, east, and 9 west. 10 Probably, one of the things that was on it is, Helen brought up, was the most notable, was Triviz 11 Bike Path. That was identified as part of it. We've actually made the connection or working on the 12 northern portion of the Triviz Bike Path north of Lohman and it will actually go underneath I-25 where the 13 outmost channel is and tie into Telshor, which eventually would get you around to the North Fork and Las 14 Cruces Arroyo, et cetera. tt will be able to carry you out into the East Mesa. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: So that's what's already been done, as far as planning. I had a few questions 16 toa, Helen. Of course, every city is different and it has to be done on a unique system, but have you 17 checked out any other metropolitan areas for ideas? 1$ ZAGONA: Yes. And, that's a real good question, and in fact we are making appointments right 19 now in Tucson and in Albuquerque. Albuquerque does have something similar ... 20 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 21 ZAGONA: ... to this, and I think Tucson does too, but I'm not...l'm not sure exactly how...they 22 have an Arroyo Plan and we're gonna go over there and just ask them a whole bunch of questions about 23 tough issues like liability, and long-term management, who cares for it, where's the money come from, 24 that kind of thing. 'Cause that's what... the Council always wants to know the answer. And, can I just say 25 very quickly one thing about this Trail Plan, and this would interest this group, probably. _7_ • • 1 We are working with developers now so that when they are developing on these major arroyos, at 2 least some of them, and have been willing to set these arroyos aside and, in fact, in a recent annexation, 3 in Section 3, the developer, Mr. Philippou, is going to actually landscape and create a trail and then he is 4 going to donate this to the City. And, so it'll be, sort of kind of, like a park but they're gonna try and make 5 as natural as passible. So, the developers are actually really kind of enthusiastic about this `cause they 6 can't really use those arroyos far any, you know, to build on, because they have to have them for 7 drainage, so... $ CHAIR YOUNG: One thing I might suggest is you should also, there again, the terrain is quite 9 different, but looks at Denver. 10 ZAGONA: Denver, uh huh. 11 CHAIR YOUNG: They have a fantastic trail program; Cherry Creek and everything, and you can 12 actually go around the entire metropolitan area. 13 ZAGONA: Well, I'll tell you this, Colorado is way ahead of us. 14 CHAIR YOUNG: They are. 15 ZAGONA: I think you can ride a bike from one end to the other end of Colorado. 16 FORD: You can in New Mexico, but not easier. 17 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah our Governor just passed... 18 KYLE: That's what he (inaudible). 19 ZAGONA: Any way, I appreciate the time that you gave me. 20 CHAIR YOUNG: Any other questions or comments? OK. 21 ZAGONA: Thank you very much. 22 CHAIR YOUNG: Thank you. 23 We didn't take up nearly the amount of time allotted there. Yes? 24 BUCHMAN: Don't we have minutes from the last...meeting? 25 CHAIR YOUNG: Work session? -8- • • 1 BUCHMAN: Yeah. 2 CHAIR YOUNG: No. 3 BUCHMAN: No? 4 CHAIR YOUNG: No. I think... 5 BUCHMAN: Why not? 6 CHAIR YOUNG: ...that has already been taken care of as to.... 7 VINCENT BANEGAS: We'll check. We need to double check and see; it's been so long... $ KYLE: Frankly, I don't remember the last time we had one, and so... 9 BUCHMAN: Yeah, but still there would be minutes from them... 10 BANEGAS: Yeah. 11 BUCHMAN: ...that had to be approved. 12 BANEGAS: Yeah. We'll check. We'll double up on the next set. We'll have to go back and get 13 them over to you. 14 BUCHMAN: OK. 15 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, that takes us to Roman Numeral III. 16 The discussion of proposed amendments to Section 38-56 of the Zoning Code; this is Flexible 17 Development Standards. And Section 36-12 of the Sign Code, which is Lighting. 18 BARRY COLE: That's me... 19 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. 20 COLE: I'm Barry Cole. We have an Outdoor Lighting Ordinance in place within the City. It 21 needs some revisions. One of the things that we'd really like to put into it is the ability to have some 22 flexibility. When a situation comes up that may not exactly meet the standards that are set out in the 23 revisions we want to put in place, we'd like to be able to work with a developer or a contractor so that we 24 can get what they need as far as outdoor lighting, advertising, and at the same time we can help 25 accomplish the things that we want to do with an Outdoor Lighting Ordinance.. -9- • • 1 To do that, we'd like to use what's already in place in the Zoning Code, the Flexible Standards. 2 And, by just making a few language changes to show that it does apply to Outdoor Lighting, we would be 3 able to do that. 4 The current Code only allows...allows no variance, and if you want to change anything or do 5 anything different from what the actual Code says ,you have to go to B of A.. Using...being able to use 6 these Flexible Development Standards, would allow us to do some adjustment in-house, and even 7 negotiate with the contractor or a developer to get some other benefit for the public in exchange for $ additional lighting. 9 So that's the purpose of making the changes in the Flexible Development Standards, and the 10 only reason for making a change in the Sign Code is to show that the Outdoor Lighting Ordinance does 11 apply to lighting on a sign, to make it very specific... 12 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 13 COLE: ...so that we stay...that we keep the lighting on the sign meeting the same requirements 14 that any outdoor lighting would need to meet. So I'm recommending, or asking that this go forward to the 15 Commission meeting next week. 16 CHAIR YOl1NG: OK, are there any questions here, or comments? 17 FORD: Who put this together? 18 BUCHMAN: Yeah. 19 LANI MCCARSON: Barry did. 20 FORD: I hope you didn't expect us to send this forward, 'because it's in sad shape, in my 21 opinion. It needs a great deal of work on it. 22 COLE: OK. 23 FORD: And, I cannot support it as to the form that's in now, the grammar, and the form, and 24 some of the ways it was put together. 25 CHAIR YOUNG: What about the... COLE: Which part? -10- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: ...basic information, though, I mean...? 2 ALL SPEAKING AT THE SAME TIME 3 MCCARSON: Are you talking specifically about Chapter 39? 4 KYLE: Yeah, which...which portion are we talking about, Dr. Ford, just for clarity? 5 FORD: Well, I guess it's what you sent to us; the part that says Chapter 39 -Outdoor Lighting. 6 That and the legislative formula... 7 KYLE: Chapter 39, Mr. Chairman, if I may. Chapter 39 is the actual Outdoor Lighting Ordinance. 8 That is the document...that particular document is outside of the review of the Planning and Zoning 9 Commission, that's City Council approved document. We provided, as I think you can see, the Outdoor 10 Lighting, or the proposed changes. What the Planning and Zoning Commission is being asked 11 essentially, is to have brought forward is the portion marked 38-56, the Flexible Development Standards, 12 and the 36-12 Lighting; and that's an excerpt from the Sign Code. Those are the two portions of this 13 proposal that this Committee has jurisdiction over, and we want to add those references into the Zoning 14 Code and the Sign Code reflecting the Outdoor Lighting Ordinance. But, the Outdoor Lighting Ordinance 15 is a City Council document that they began and they stay out...is outside of P&Z preview. 16 Staff has been directed to bring this forward, essentially, as quickly as we can, that's why staff, 17 certainly will take any comments that the Commission has, but it does intend on bringing the 38-56 and 18 the 36-12 to the Commission next week for action. 19 FORD: We don't have anything to say about either one of them? 20 MCCARSON: Not, about 39. 21 KYLE: Not about 39, but... 22 CHAIR YOUNG: The first two, we could say... 23 MCCARSON: But you can... I mean Barry needs help. 24 BUCHMAN: What...my question, I go along with Mr. Ford; why put 39 in here? 25 CHAIR YOUNG: Just for reference for your information to show... -11- • • 1 BUCHMAN: I feel the same way, it can... 2 FORD: It's sad. 3 BUCHMAN: ...get confusing, and really had...l looked and said, yeah, OK, it doesn't apply to us. 4 The rest of it, I did look at it, so if it's just information, that's OK. 5 (VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING IN THE BACKGROUND) 6 BUCHMAN: I particularly have no problem. All they did is, just change two or three words, 7 (VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING IN THE BACKGROUND) 8 BUCHMAN: ...38-56, change a couple of wards and we can. Berry, what you changed in 36-12, 9 add one sentence? 10 COLE: Yeah, yeah. 11 BANEGAS: It's very minor, it's changes being proposed in the Development Codes. 12 MCCARSON: But if you, as an individual citizen now, have comments I'm sure Barry would be 13 more than happy to change that. You know, I know he's done a lot of work on it, and I've run through and 14 if...l don't even come close to understanding it, it's so beyond me, I guess. But, if you have comment, I 15 mean, we're not saying you can't comment on it... 16 BUCHMAN: Yeah, right. 17 MCCARSON: ...but you understand you won't be voting on Chapter 39. 18 BUCHMAN: Yeah, I said 39 was... 19 KYLE: We'll just remove that from the Council packet then when it comes forward just to avoid 20 confusion. 21 BUCHMAN: Do we need a vote or anything on this? 22 CHAIR YOUNG: No, we don't vote on it. We can just take a consensus. Anyone have any 23 heartache on taking this up at our meeting next week? 24 BUCHMAN: As long as it doesn't have 39 on it. 25 CHAIR YOUNG: Right, right. That's fine. -12- • • 1 KYLE: If you have...if you want to provide direction, or have changes that you want to see in 38- 2 56, or 36-12, certainly now is an opportunity to provide that, but otherwise, we'll bring it forward as 3 proposed. 4 LUDTKE: It's easier for you and it let's you do your job better, obviously. 5 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. Commissioner Ludtke, any problem? 6 LUDTKE: No that's fine, it sound like, it's just the sounding right here. You're gonna bring this to 7 our meeting next week if we...for approval. 8 KYLE: It's a Code amendment required to come this way. (inaudible) 9 CHAIR YOUNG: OK, thank you Barry. 10 Roman Numeral IV then, the discussion of proposed amendment to the Zoning Code to allow 11 notification of zone change related cases to the Planning and Zoning Commission to be sent by regular 12 mail, and by certified mail before the City Council. 13 And I'm anxious to go over this one. 14 CHARLES HARWOOD: OK. L..it's pretty straight forward. Currently staff sends notices of 15 Planning and Zoning Commission meetings. Any City Council public hearings that involve zoning related 16 cases by certified mail. According to City's legal staff, we may send notice of the Planning and Zoning 17 Commission public hearing by regular mail instead of certified mail. And, as you can see, it would 18 certainly save the City some money... 19 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 20 HARWOOD: ...but I think, just as important is that it will reduce the inconvenience and 21 aggravation to property owners that we hear from on a regular basis. And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I'd be 22 happy to answer questions. 23 CHAIR YOUNG: OK. Commissioners, what comments do you have on this? Commissioner 24 BUCHMAN: Do you really get... 25 CHAIR YOUNG: ...a lot of citizens complaining about the registered mail? -13- -~. ~. 1 PLANNERS IN UNISON: Oh yeah! Yes! 2 HARWOOD: I'll let the ones that are, on a day to day basis... 3 KYLE: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Buchman, we get, and it's hard to say on the average, but on any 4 given zone change case, we will get a...what I would consider significant amount returned unclaimed. 5 Actually people, they get the certified, they know it's from the City; they don't go get it, because they Fi expect it's something they don't care about. Or we get the calls with complaints that, "I had to drive all the 7 way to, you know, the Commerce Substation to pick it up, and then I find out is this. And, I don't care". 8 "You know, it's three blocks away" or wherever. We actually do receive a substantial amount of people 9 that complain about it. And with the ones that get returned, not only is the City is out that money that it 10 spent; the four dollars ar whatever, but then the people aren't getting the notice. If it's sent regular mail, 11 it's in their box; they don't have to make any effort besides opening it. 12 CHAIR YOUNG: That was the main thing that I was hoping to avoid. How many times have we 13 had a case where a citizen said, I never heard about this case. 14 KYLE: Well, the (inaudible) 15 CHAIR YOUNG: ...the reason that many of them don't hear about the cases is because they 16 didn't go dawn and pick up their certified mail. 17 BUCHMAN: You think that... 18 CHAIR YOUNG: And then they gripe. 19 BUCHMAN: OK. Yeah, because, that's what's gonna come back to you. I've heard the public 20 say, I was never notified. 21 LUDTKE: Exactly. 22 BUCHMAN: So, I guess we have to weigh the two of them. You feel just going out with regular 23 mail mare chance that people would read it... 24 MCCARSON: Mh hm. 25 BUCHMAN: ...and less time of hassle for you folks. -14- • • 1 KYLE: They don't have to make an effort to go get it for one. It comes to them, if it's not 2 certified, the mailman is gonna leave it. But, it...to comply with the State's, you know, statutes et cetera, 3 and because the Plann...because the City Council is the Planning governing body of the City, we have to 4 send certified notice to that body, and basically on the advice of legal counsel starting this year or in 5 2003, we had to start doing public hearings in City Council, as apposed to just automatically forwarding 6 those cases forward. We never made notice on that. All of a sudden, we are sending out two certified 7 notices, or three, or four, if the case is postponed or something, on a zone change chase. But $ theoretically, we could probably get by with one time to the City Council who ultimately makes that 9 decision, and send it regular mail to Planning and Zoning Commission public hearings. 10 We honestly do believe we'll reach more people. We do that in the City Subdivision process. 11 When we wrote the Subdivision Code, we were able to get the legislature to approve a bill to allow that to 12 occur. We were unable to get them to do that on zoning cases at the last session a year ago, maybe next 13 year, they'll bring it up again. There was a bill to allow regular mail notice for zone change, but currently 14 they have to be sent certified, and we would just like to reduce the redundancy of that. 15 Especially when they get it the first time, on a case, they're not gonna go back and pick it up the 16 second or third time. 17 CAMUNEZ: Well Robert, can't you just send a certified letter and then a regular letter? 18 (SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) 19 CAMUNEZ: Yes, send both because, I know from past experience I used to send Certified; they 20 never pick it up. So I started sending Certified and regular; and I had better luck. 21 BANEGAS: What we're trying to do is reduce the number of certified mailouts... 22 CAMUNEZ: The cost? 23 BANEGAS: ...the cast, yeah, the cost, but the number of times we send certifieds out 2a MCCARSON: Yeah. 25 CAMUNEZ: Mh hm. Oh, yeah. -15- • • 1 BANEGAS: ...in one period, so... 2 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner l.udtke? 3 LUDTKE: If you...if you send that out to them in regular mail, by the chance that a self 4 addressed envelope back to the city or back to this department would be enclosed, where they could just 5 sign and send back to you if they had something, is that an answer? 6 (SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) 7 HARWOOD: That's an option. 8 KYLE: Well, that's an option, certainly. We're...l don't want this to sound callous, we are not 9 required to make sure you read the notice we send you; we just have to mail it. In the cases of 10 subdivisions what Mr. Clifton does is send his notice out, he executes an affidavit certifying the list of 11 people he sent where we generated the letter to. Whether they read it or whatever, is obviously beyond 12 our control, just as it's beyond our control whether the Post Office actually delivers it, but we certify that 13 we complied with our statutory requirements of at least sending that out. 14 CLIFTON: In the four years I've... since we've been doing it on the City side, I've rarely, if at any 15 time, had any problems sending those out by cert...by regular mail. In fact, it is probably reduced the 16 number of problems that I normally would've had with Certified mail outs. The number of returns that 17 come back are a lot fewer than when I used to do it by Certified Mail, and in fact if...l can almost assure 18 you that if I were to put aself-addressed and stamped envelope for a response in there, most people 19 wouldn't respond. Most people that I discuss these issues with, they don't care. They get a letter, oh, 20 that's all? You sent me a letter for this? If anything, I get a lot of complaints, why I can't believe you'd 21 spend that much time sending out mail like this. 22 KYLE: And certainly on the subdivision side of things where you may have processed it last 23 years, and affected the same area, the same people are constantly getting notice because there was a... 24 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 25 -16- • • 1 KYLE: ...of a Master Plan, or Preliminary Plat, and then this phase, this phase, this phase, this 2 phase, they simply stop picking them up. And, we have the same problem with the Zoning cases, I mean; 3 I get a significant number of unclaimed returned letters that we spend $4.63 or more... 4 HARWOOD: Or more... 5 KYLE: Or more. 6 (VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) 7 HARWOOD: ...(inaudible) this is the minimal cost, if we have...had a package... 8 CHAIR YOUNG: Yes. 9 HARWOOD: ...the Certified goes up actually exponentially. 1Q BANEGAS: Right. 11 MCCARSON: Mh hm. 12 HARWOOD: The City gets a break at .35¢, but that's like ane sheet of paper, or two sheets of 13 paper. If you trip the ounce... 14 MCCARSON: Mh hm. 15 HARWOOD: ...then this is going to be .57¢ or something like that. 16 KYLE: And, it will certainly have no effect on, on notice... 17 LUDTKE: Put your hand up. 18 BUCHMAN: Mr... 19 CHAIR YOUNG: Go ahead, Mr. Ludtke. 20 LUDTKE: Two things here, actually, there's seems like the legal beagles, there seems like 21 there's the legal responsibility for notifying these citizens and the desire of the government to notify these 22 citizens of...they're going to affect their life. Like, there's two things there, so we're...just by regular mail, 23 we're...we are contemplating never going to achieve that. Those two things, right? 24 KYLE: l3ut, we're still (inaudible). 25 LUDTKE: I mean there's two things that are being affected here. -17- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Say...you heard Robert say that they kept a list of every citizen to whom it was 2 mailed; that covers the City legally. 3 HARWOOD: An affidavit would be executed by the staff person working on that zoning case, just 4 like Kirk mentioned that he signs, and that goes in the file... 5 LUDTKE: So, that's good, that's good, I'm just talking about.. ti HARWOOD: ...yeah... 7 LUDTKE: ...the reality of the...the reality of... 8 HARWOOD: ...sure... 9 LUDTKE: ...of me telling you that I'm gonna do something to you, OK? 10 KYLE: So, the philosophical basis of why we send notice, and I, personally, I'm not sure that's 11 anymore enhanced or detracted from it because it's Certified Mail or not. Being Certified has a certain 12 level of, you know, a certain air of afficialness, I guess, about it, but when we see the number unclaimed, 13 returned, refused, we actually get some that are refused. And, we're not eliminating it entirely when it 14 goes to the City Council, that's certified notice would be sent. But, we think, honestly that we would catch 15 a bigger net of people with the notice for P&Z, which is really their first good opportunity for public 16 hearing, sending it regular mail. 17 MCCARSON: 'Cause now that we sent them twice, and then they're refusing it twice, they're not 18 picking it up twice, they're not, you know, doing it twice, and then they get no notice. Where the...at least 19 one is sent regular mail, there's at least shows up at their house and then if they elect not to go get the 20 second letter, the actual Certified one, they've at least been notified once. 21 HARWOOD: On the second page of the...let's see it's the second full paragraph, it's what 22 Robert was alluding to, I have a sentence in the middle of the paragraph claiming that this may be even 23 more effective procedure. I hesitated to put it in, but based upon the comments that staff has received 24 from property owners... 25 MCCARSON: Mh hm. -18- lJ 1 HARWOOD: ...1'm satisfied, but I can make that statement that it may, in fact, be a more 2 effective procedure. 3 CHAIR YOUNG: Commissioner Buchman? 4 BUCHMAN: My comment, and I kind of agree a hundred percent...) agree with what you're 5 saying, my only concern would be, three months, six months, down the road, people coming back and 6 saying, groups of people, I wasn't notified. I don't know about this, you're not doing it right.. We can 7 always come back later and modify it again, if this should happen. 8 HARWOOD: Right, yeah. 9 LUDTKE: I guess I was thinking in my mind, while you...while he was talking about this clause 10 is, is there any type of trial period... 11 MCCARSON: Uh hu. 12 LUDKTE: ...where you can try it... 13 BUCHMAN: You can make it and see... 14 (SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) 15 LUDKTE: We can see what the results are for a time, six months, or a year... 16 BUCHMAN: A year. 17 LUDTKE: ...then come back and review... 18 BUCHMAN: Revisit. 19 LUDTKE: ...revisit that issue. 20 HARWOOD: In fact, we've held off just a little bit to have a little more of a record; that's why 21 we're bringing it now. I have a complete year, that I can document, you know, the basic cast. I don't 22 have the exact cost, because we haven't been able to review each package to determine if that packet 23 had more sheets of paper in it. What I put were the minimums, and I've got the basic numbers for each 24 case...came up with the average of...so, but that's why we're bringing it up, we're ready to do this, and 25 you know, you wanted, essentially, it's a trial. It's kind of like any amendment, if three months from now... (SEVERAL PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) -19- • • 1 BUCHMAN: I wouldn't say three months... 2 LUDTKE: A year. 3 BUCHMAN: ...Yeah. 4 LUDTKE: In this last year or so, we've been going...were getting to this period of rezoning the 5 entire... 6 CHAIR YOUNG: Right, right 7 LUDTKE: ...which if that falls off the table and then we get back, and then more.., time to 8 change things... 9 CHAIR YOUNG: But the zoning still has... 10 LUDTKE: But the problem still continues...? 11 KYLE: I think that... 12 LUDTKE: Well, in the very day business, or... 13 KYLE: I think...yeah. 14 LUDTKE: ...just because of the rezoning? 15 KYLE: No. It's...it's... 16 CHAIR YOUNG: A lot of people are notified. 17 BUCHMAN: OK, OK. 18 HARWOOD: Let me just mention, I didn't break down fifty cents...57 cases last year; nine...nine 19 were the large conversion cases, OK. Qverwhelming number, I mean, the average was about 400 or 500 20 property owners notified on those. The other, what did I say, nine? So that would be 48. The other 48 21 cases were your standard zoning cases, and that really brought the average down. You see, the average 22 came out at 98.3, well, probably about 50 we figured from the green cards... 23 KYLE: Right. 24 WARWOOD: ...was the average for those cases, but see, you saw forty, that's 48 regular, so... 25 KYLE: And, if I may, I think, you know, the idea of a test case, which staff has no problem doing that, but 1 think we've actually had a good test case for the last few years... -20- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 2 KYLE: ...we've been doing it for the subdivisions. And, unless Kirk can...you guys have not 3 heard people complain on subdivision cases about notice, and public hearing, that I can remember, and 4 of staff, I have not heard people complaining about it... 5 CLIFTON: Yeah... 6 KYLE: ...'cause we used to send all notice for subdivisions out by Certified Mail. 7 CLIFTON: It's very rare, but, I mean, you are...we will perpetually hear complaints because... 8 MCCARSON: Yeah. 9 CLIFTON: ...there are inherent problems with notification... 10 MCCARSON: Right. 11 CLIFTON: ... in County records, I mean, the County records aren't necessarily always accurate 12 or the property owner may not live at the actual residence. There's a whole lot of factors that play into it 13 that, you know, we're just not going to reach everybody. 14 KYLE: And those are going to exist whether they're Certified or not. 15 CLIFTON: Yeah, and that's just perpetual, it will, probably not in our career, will ever change. 16 And, it's just, kind of... 17 LUDTKE: Of course, people in the subdivision areas...in the... 18 CLIFTON: Not necessarily... 19 LUDTKE: ...subdivision areas are more attuned to notification by government than people that 20 are in like, in a neighborhood where they're gonna put a lawyers office and, you know, type of situation.... 21 CLIFTON: But if they... 22 LUDTKE: ...some people don't receive their... 23 CLIFTON: But if their property is recently sold, and talking to the Assessors Office, sometimes 24 when they close, by the time all that information filters in, for input, you know, the new owner is there, but 25 they don't get notified; the previous owner does, and then they show up and, well, I wasn't notified. Well, this is what probably happened to them. -21- ~J 1 HARWOOD: Because there may be a... 2 LUDTKE: Seems like there's always a high time tested... 3 HARWOOD: ... of six months or possibly, before that property... 4 KYLE: Yeah... 5 HARWOOD: record gets... 6 KYLE: ...changed. 7 CHAIR YOUNG: Well, we can...we can hash this out more at our public hearing. I think that's 8 really the place to do any more talking. Any one have any problem with carrying this forward? 9 FORD: I... 10 CHAIR YOUNG: Mr. Ford, go ahead. 11 FORD: I have a question, and it's not apropos to this penny-pinching, but who receives notices? 12 KYLE: Property... 13 FORD: Say, for a zoning change. 14 KYLE: Property owners, not tenants, property owners of record that fall within a 200 foot radius 15 excluding all rights-of way and all other public ways. 16 HARWOOD: Which makes it larger... 17 KYLE; Right. 18 HARWOOD: ... a larger area but.... 19 KYLE: The minimum is 15... 20 HARWOOD: If you don't have 15, you have to go... 21 KYLE: Expand... 22 HARWOOD: ...further. That's why these numbers are well above 15 being notified in parts, 23 because you get more property owners within the 200 foot boundary area. Especially in the developed 24 alder parts of town, you know, the Mesquite area, same of the small block areas. 25 KYLE: Yeah, Mesquite will not be uncommon on a zone change request; you might pick up 60 properties in a notice... -22- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Mh hm. 2 KYLE: ...just because there, mare properties. 3 CHAIR YOUNG: How many? 4 FORD: The reason I ask that, would it be realistic for the mailings of the notice of a zone change 5 to go to the Commissioners who are from that region. And, the reason I ask is that there's a zone 6 change, which came as quite a surprise to me. I've gotten several calls about irate groups. 7 They're (inaudible) about it. Would it be possible, say, in my case? I'm the (inaudible) 8 Commissioner for that area, to receive the mailing so at least we'd have... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BANEGAS: Mh hm. FORD: ...some knowledge of what's going on? KYLE: I'm nat sure that there would be legal problem with providing you notice of things in your District... BANEGAS: There could be a problem with you discussing the case, prior to it reaching the body, the Commission, at a public hearing. That would be the only concern. FORD: Concern? KYLE: Yes... MCCARSON: Mh hm. KYLE: Yes. That's a no no. BANEGAS: Just refer them to us. KYLE: Just the staff, have them call staff. FORD: They might not get an answer. LUDTKE: In my... KYLE: They might not like the answer they give, but they'll get an answer. BANEGAS: Well... LUDTKE: I dan't think so. I think there has to bee enough of us to discuss it. -23- • • 1 BANEGAS: ...you'll potentially hear the introduction of issues that aren't discussed in a public 2 hearing that other Commissioners may not hear; or would not have the benefit of hearing. 3 CLIFTON: Or may other wise be influenced by... 4 KYLE: It's ex pane communications. 5 CHAIR YOUNG: Yeah, this goes back to the ethics... 5 BANEGAS: But... 7 LUDTKE: So what...so what was the amount we spent last year? Got an idea? 8 How much did we spend on Certified Mail-outs? 9 (VARIOUS PEOPLE TALKING AT THE SAME TIME) 10 HARWOOD: That's the minimum... 11 BUCHMAN: Oh, that's the savings? 12 HARWOOD: That's the....the difference... 13 LUDTKE: $50,000? 14 HARWOOD: If you just considering the minimum. See, I don't have...far instance, some of the 15 cases, like the conversion cases, probably cost more because they're thicker packages. They were much 1B more your areas. Robert, what maybe a Certified of $6.00 is not unheard of... 17 KYLE: City initiated? 18 HARWOOD: $6.00 per letter instead of the $4.85 just because of the size of the package, so... 19 BUCHMAN: So, you're saying that you're spending maybe $100,000 in mail? 20 BANEGAS: Close. Hundreds... 21 NARWOOD: I'd say... 22 BUCHMAN: A hundred grand in mail. 23 HARWOOD: I mean, we can probably check through.... 24 BANEGAS: I didn't look at the budget, but I... 25 BUCHMAN: They don't want it on the record; oh this is going on the record. _24_ • • 1 MCCARSON: Yeah. 2 BANEGAS: I know that this fiscal year, we're coming real close to spending the allotment. I 3 mean, it's because of some of the recent changes that have taken place, and some of the changes that 4 Council keeps kind of, you know, throwing your way, and deviating from the process that"s been 5 established; that kind of thing. So, we may end up overspending that amount... fi LUDTKE: Sa, that's why the cost goes up. 7 BANEGAS: Oh yeah. 8 LUDTKE: Yeah. 9 HARWOOD: Well, one of the items, I guess, on the conversion say, just triggered that. In my 10 memory, it's...since Council...even though you changed the Zoning Code where the conversions didn't 11 have to go to the Planning and Zoning Commission, why, City Council... 12 BANEGAS: They've only one... 13 HARWOOD: ...once it's set to occur...That means, it's back to the way it was... 14 MCCARSON: And that was one of the biggest mail outs. Recently, I think you guys probably 15 know Northrise Business Park... 16 BUCHMAN: Mh hm. 17 MCCARSON: ...going to PUD, and I think that was one of the biggest, it had near a thousand... 18 HARWOOD: Notices. 19 MCCARSON: ...notifiers, so it went twice Certified, yeah. 20 HARPER: I sent out a 750 person notification that got dropped off the agenda, after the fact... 21 BUCHMAN: Mh. 23 24 25 HARPER: ...they pulled it; the applicant pulled it. MCCARSON: Sa, we've... LUDTKE: And their Councilman is well aware of it...they're all aware of it... BUCHMAN: That's not penny pinching. That's wasting money. -25- • 1 FORD: Yeah. 2 MCCARSON: Mh hm. 3 LUDTKE: Well... 4 BUCHMAN: If we can help... 5 FORD: How would this compare though, if we get one legal suit against us? 6 LUDTKE: It would all fall out the window. 7 BUCHMAN: But, but...you're...they're protecting themselves. 8 HARWOOD: Well, what Robert...Robert mentioned is always... 9 KYLE: Yeah. I don't think we're violating. I don't think it's a legal challenge to it. 10 HARWOOD: What Robert mentioned, the City legal staff directed us to have the affidavit signed 11 by the staff person responsible for sending the notices. That way it protects the City, we have done what 12 the law says, we can't make you read your notice or open the letter, but we did send it and we have 13 signed an affidavit. 14 KYLE: There's actual notice; me sending you a letter, and then you reading it; and then there's 15 constructive notice. Well, 1 didn't get noticed, and I'm here at the hearing tonight, 'cause my neighbor told 16 me and there's a sign on the property, and I read it. And, then, there's a big gray area in there, and.. 17 BUCHMAN: Remember that one attorney that came before us on that service station? She was 18 gonna sue us because we were dumping oil...pollutants? 19 LUDKTE: Yep. 20 BUCHMAN: Well, you're always gonna have that, you know. 21 KYLE: Since, Commissioner Buchman, you brought that out, I want to go an record by saying, I 22 have her unclaimed Certified letter in the file. They said they didn't get noticed, well, they did. 23 CHAIR YOUNG: That's good, goad. OK so, should we carry this forward... 24 BUCHMAN: Yes. 25 CHAIR YOUNG: ...into our public meeting? HARWOOD: It will be on next week's agenda. -26- • • 1 CHAIR YOUNG: Good. 2 Staff, is there anything else that you want to bring before us this evening? 3 KYLE: I don't believe so. The meeting will be next week, 6:00 O'clock, and like I said, we will 4 have a vacancy with Dolores not being there. Elizabeth Camunez, will be there, so hopefully we'll 5 (inaudible). ti CHAIR YOUNG: And then another one in March. 7 KYLE: At least one more in March. So... I can look at the record. 1 know that Chris is ineligible 8 now. The Council could, however, if Chris wants to remain in place until the position is filled, because, we 9 won't necessary be a warm body down. 10 CHAIR YOUNG: All right, Commissioners, anything else? 11 BUCHMAN: Glad to see our new Commissioner on board. 12 CHAIR YOUNG: Yes, glad to have you. 13 CAMUNEZ: Thank you. 14 CHAIR YOUNG: All right, is there a motion far adjournment? 15 BUCHMAN: So moved. 16 CHAIR YOUNG: We're adjourned. 17 18 Meeting Adjourned at 6:45 pm 19 20 21 CHAIR 22 23 24 25 -27-