Loading...
09-16-2008WS PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION WORK SESSION AGENDA The following agenda will be considered by the Planning and Zoning Commission of the City of Las Cruces, New Mexico, at a work session to be held on Tuesday, September 16, 2008, at 6:00 p.m. in City Council Chambers located in City Hall at 200 N. Church Street, Las Cruces, New Mexico. The City of Las Cruces does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, color, ancestry, serious medical condition, national origin, age, or disability in the provision of services. The City of Las Cruces will make reasonable accommodation for a qualified individual who wishes to attend this meeting. Please notify the City Community Development Department at least 48 hours before the meeting by calling 528-3043 (voice) or 528-3016 (TTY) if accommodation is necessary. This document can be made available in alternative formats by calling the same numbers listed above. I. CALL TO ORDER 11. APPROVAL OF WORK SESSION MINUTES July 15, 2008 III. STRATEGY FOR REVIEW AND UPDATE OF UNIVERSITY AVENUE CORRIDOR PLAN AND OVERLAY ZONE IV. TRANSPORT 2040 (LAS CRUCES METROPOLITAN PLANNING ORGANIZATION LONG RANGE TRANSPORTATION PLAN): The MPO will give a brief presentation regarding their organization's role in development review and the long range transportation planning process. The long range plan that is being developed has been titled Transport 2040. Following the presentation an interactive session will be facilitated to gather input on the overall vision for the regional transportation system. Major Thoroughfare Plan maps will be brought to the meeting and participants will be encouraged to review these maps and to provide feedback. This MPO planning effort is in its early stages and is seeking input from numerous stakeholders. V. DISCUSSION OF OTHER ITEMS VI. ADJOURNMENT t F t F L t i t S 3 I PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION 2 WORK SESSION 3 FOR THE CITY OF LAS CRUCES 4 September 16, 2008 at 6:00 p.m. 5 6 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: 7 Charles Scholz, Chairman 8 Ray Shipley, Member 9 Godfrey Crane, Member 10 Shawn Evans, Vice Chair 11 Donald Bustos, Secretary 12 Charles Beard, Member 13 Clayton Iserman, Member 14 15 BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT: 16 17 STAFF PRESENT: 18 Vincent Banegas, Planning & MPO Administrator 19 Cheryl Rodriguez, Development Administrator 20 Tom Schuster, Senior Planner 21 Tom Murphy, MPO Officer 22 Andy Hume, Associate Planner 23 Caeri Thomas, Associate Planner 24 Susan Lowell, Planner 25 Becky Eich, Recording Secretary 26 27 I. CALL TO ORDER 6:02 28 29 Scholz: This is a work session of the Planning and Zoning Commission. 30 31 II. APPROVAL OF WORK SESSION MINUTES - July 15, 2008 32 33 Scholz: What we need to do first of all is approve the work session minutes of July 34 15, 2008. 1 trust I hear paper rattling and packages opening here. I trust 35 everybody has read their minutes of 2008. Are there any additions or 36 corrections to those minutes? 37 38 Crane: Chairman. 39 40 Scholz: Yes, Mr. Crane. 41 42 Crane: I'm not sure if this is worth putting into the record but ... 43 44 Scholz: But. 45 46 Crane: Page 15. 1 1 2 Scholz: Yes. 3 4 Crane: A brief speech I made, fourth line the words "misleading purchases" and it 5 should be "purchasers." I can't imagine anybody in life alerted. 6 7 Scholz: Which line are we talking about? 8 9 Crane: Line 27 on the page. 10 11 Scholz: 27, okay. 12 13 Crane: And as regards to the parts where I was inaudible, I haven't been able to 14 rescue them but I don't think they were terribly important. 15 16 Scholz: Well, there was a lot of inaudible. It reminded me of you know Nixon's 17 tapes with the gap you know, only it wasn't (inaudible). 18 19 Crane: But not for the same reasons. 20 21 Scholz: I didn't think so. No. One of the reasons we're here in case you're 22 confused by this is that the audio system that we were using in the little 23 room in the crummy building over there on Alameda doesn't ... well, didn't 24 pick up our voices very well. So that's why we're here. I kind of like the 25 intimacy of that room, but I understand that ... 26 27 Bustos: Is that true? 28 29 Scholz: Someone said the smell is bad. Did it leak during the rain or something? 30 Every year. Well, I'm hoping that the City will see fit to bulldoze it after the 31 new building is finished. But who knows? Maybe they'll sell it to 32 somebody. Okay, any additions or corrections then other than what 33 Commissioner Crane said? All right, I'll entertain a motion to approve the 34 minutes. 35 36 Crane: So moved. 37 38 Scholz: Is there a second? 39 40 Shipley: Second. 41 42 Scholz: All those in favor say aye. 43 44 ALL COMMISSIONERS MEMBERS -AYE. 45 2 I Scholz: Those opposed nay. And those abstentions? Okay, it passes. Thank 2 you. 3 4 III. STRATEGY FOR REVIEW AND UPDATE OF UNIVERSITY AVENUE 5 CORRIDOR PLAN AND OVERLAY ZONE 6 7 Scholz: All right, our first item on the agenda is strategy for review and update of 8 University Avenue Corridor Plan and Overlay Zone. And we are going to 9 hear from someone who will introduce herself. 10 11 Lowell: Yes, good evening. This is Susan Lowell from the Community 12 Development department. This is our plan for the public involvement as 13 we update the University Avenue Plan and Overlay. We envision this to 14 be a robustly public process, much like the 2040 regional comp plans that 15 are currently under way. We've been discussing this with the University 16 Avenue Design Review Committee for the past year and now we're 17 bringing this to you for comments. 18 Just to give you a little bit of background and context on the Plan: 19 both the Plan and the Overlay were adopted 16 to 17 years ago. Under 20 the City's comp planning framework this is a fourth level plan, area specific 21 corridor plan. The primary goals are to provide an attractive and useful 22 environment for pedestrians generated by the NMSU campus. And 23 though concerned with future development, there are guidelines in the 24 Plan for preserving the nearby neighborhoods. Strategies for the corridor 25 primarily limit uses and apply design criteria. This is the original University 26 Avenue Overlay Zone at the time the Plan was adopted in 1992. Here we 27 see the proposed changes to the UAC Plan and Overlay, Plan Area 6 28 which is blue, and 7 which is red are shown along with the Overlay 29 boundaries of annexations for the Las Cruces Center which is yellow and 30 the NMSU Hotel which is orange. The purple square represents a 31 proposed amendment to add a parcel that is currently in Area 2 to Area 4. 32 This is a case that will come before this Commissioner at your October 33 meeting. 34 Several factors affect our recommendation to update the Plan and 35 Overlay. They all intend to respond to the changes that have occurred 36 over the last decade, like the increased interest in development along 37 University Avenue including the Las Cruces Center here in the foreground 38 on this (inaudible). The NMSU Master Plan which highlights the university 39 substantial investment along the avenue including the arts complex which 40 is rendered here as a mass on Espina and University, the Domenici 41 Center farther east, and the new Jordan Street entrance, which is 42 envisioned to be a mixed use development with ground floor retail and 43 residences above. 44 There are also persistent issues that have occurred which the Plan 45 and overlay have not corrected, including safety concerns like sidewalk 46 obstructions, traffic buffers, curb cuts, pedestrian crossings, bike lanes, 3 Apr- 1 including design elements like rock canyons, vast expanses of parking, 2 and walls fronting University that conflict with pedestrian safety and 3 accessibility and aren't visually interesting. Including design with height 4 restrictions and low density which have a down side in that they reduce 5 what's needed in order to create an active pedestrian friendly district. 6 Including pedestrian oriented land uses that are not allowed, for instance 7 along part of the most intensively pedestrian active portion of the corridor, 8 land uses are limited to residential and office, rather than commercial uses 9 such as restaurants, retails, artists, live-work space, food and beverage 10 retail sales. Including demographics which have changed, the Plan is 16 11 years old and that in and of itself warrants revision. And most importantly, 12 we need strategies to address the needs and goals of the districts multiple 13 stakeholders. 14 We're anticipating a minimum of three rounds of public meetings 15 and Charette-style design meeting through the end of the fiscal year. 16 We'll plan for additional rounds if results from the second round are 17 inconclusive. Round one will tentatively kick off on November 5th at the 18 University Hills Elementary School. This will be an evening meeting to 19 initiate the planning process. It'll be followed by six open house studios in 20 a centrally located storefront for continued participation. The round one 21 format for the kickoff will be Staff presentation and public participation. 22 Staff will present the goals of the planning process, the existing Plan, 23 trends, and statistics that affect the area. Participants will work 24 independently and move freely through several stations for mapping and 25 writing activities. For instance, there'll be a station asking participants to 26 place dots on maps of the roadway and intersections to identify where 27 improvements need to be made so they feel safe crossing the street. 28 We'll have maps showing the area's land uses, transportation data, transit 29 routes and bus stops, and a base map of the avenue and the 30 intersections, typical road cross sections, and a very preliminary vision 31 statement. We anticipate the open house studios will continue the a 32 mapping and the writing activities from the kickoff. Because a roadway is 33 the principal focus of the Plan and the Overlay, we'll be consulting with 34 technical Staff from the Metropolitan Planning Organization (MPO), Public 35 Works, Traffic, and NMSU to evaluate public comments for technical 36 solutions to the issues raised during the round one and in preparation for 37 the Charette. 38 We're planning a Charette-style meeting in early December to 39 address the design and safety challenges of this Principal Arterial that is 40 the seam between the City and the university. This would be participatory 41 where the public would tour the corridor and work in small groups with the 42 technical staff team. We expect to generate multiple design options for 43 the roadway, intersections, and streetscape. These would be reviewed 44 and commented upon by the public during the second round. Round two 45 is slated for early winter 2009 and we'll assess our progress and make 46 sure we're representing public concerns and ideas. The format for round 4 1 two will be similar to round one, public meeting with activities followed by 2 open house studios in a centrally located place. Staff will present back to 3 the community the results of round one, a redrafted vision statement 4 based on community input, initial goals and policies for comment. 5 Activities will include prioritizing capital improvement projects that will 6 meet the goals and comments on physical design improvements 7 generated in the Charette. Again, participants work independently moving 8 through several stations for mapping and writing activities. There would 9 be interim rounds that would follow round two if the results of round two 10 were inconclusive. 11 The final round we anticipate occurring in the spring of 2009 and 12 the format of that would be a public meeting where the full draft is 13 presented for comments and refinement. Staff will work with the 14 University Avenue Corridor Design Review Committee, which plays an 15 advisory role in this planning process. We will ask them to attend and 16 participate public meetings, review, and comment on the draft and 17 graphics, goals and policies, assist with public input, serve as liaison 18 support and advocate the planning process, review and recommend the 19 final plan. 20 We've asked the members of the University Avenue Corridor 21 Citizen's Design Review Committee to identify the main issues they think 22 the planning process should address and expect to discuss this at their 23 October 6th meeting. We'd like to hear from this Commission. Are there 24 any issues you'd like Staff to investigate prior to holding round one public 25 meetings? Open question. 26 27 Scholz: Okay, gentlemen, questions for Ms. Lowell? 28 29 Shipley: I would just make a comment that I haven't seen anything so I can't tell 30 you if there are issues, but I mean obviously if you're looking at something 31 that's 17, 18 years old, we'd like to see it you know as soon as possible. 32 And I'd like to have a copy of your minutes or your presentation because 33 it's got key dates in there and I want to make sure that we find out if we're 34 able to attend the Charettes and those things. I know we're able to attend, 35 are we able to participate? Okay, I'm getting a shaking of the head from 36 the back of the room, but sometimes you know if you're supposedly a 37 review person you're limited not doing that at that time but ... 38 39 Scholz: You could always wear a disguise. 40 41 Lowell: We'll have an assortment of rubber noses. 42 43 Scholz: And since the first round is probably close to Halloween it might be 44 appropriate. Other questions for Ms. Lowell. I have several. Okay, one of 45 the things we passed, I believe it was last spring around the University 46 Plan was to allow buildings to be brought right to the edge of the sidewalk. 5 I And I noticed from the pictures you had and I think the final picture you 2 showed us was ... the one in the lower right is that the new entrance on 3 Jordan? 4 5 Lowell: Yes, it is. 6 7 Scholz: The planned entrance. While that's very imposing, it's also very 8 intimidating. It seems to me that one of the beauties of this campus and I 9 teach on campus and see it almost every day, is that it's open. You know 10 it's not built up, it's not constricted. And looking at the range of buildings 11 that they want to put on University Avenue seems to me what they're 12 doing is building a wall between the community and the university. You 13 know psychologically that's a bad thing. I understand you know wanting 14 the concept of an entrance, a grand entrance of some sort and Jordan 15 doesn't look like much at all, you know it's kind of part of the parking lot. 16 But this looks like Houseman's remodeling of Paris actually, you know 17 where they cleared away things and then built these high buildings to kind 18 of intimidate people you know on the boulevards. 19 20 Crane: Also, get a good cannon shot down University Avenue. 21 22 Scholz: I beg your pardon? 23 24 Crane: You can also get a good cannon shot down University Avenue. 25 26 Scholz: I never thought of that. 27 28 Crane: He did apparently. 29 30 Scholz: Perhaps we should have a statue of Pierre L'Enfant or something you 31 know to set it off. Seriously though, I think bringing buildings to the front of 32 the lot may be pedestrian friendly but it certainly is intimidating from a 33 visual standpoint and it looks to me like the university wants to you know 34 like enclose the entire campus with buildings. I think that's a bad idea, 35 really do. Anyway, my questions are not related to that. What parts are 36 currently zoned residential and office? You can go back to the map. t 37 38 Lowell: Primarily Area 2 which fronts a large section of University Avenue is ... 39 40 Scholz: Well, there's a church on the corner of Jordan and University. 41 42 Lowell: Yes. Religious institutions, residential, multifamily residential, office. No 43 commercial basically. 44 45 Scholz: Well there's a commercial ... 46 6 I Lowell: Very limited office. 2 3 Scholz: Yeah, I was going to say there's not much office space. There's another 4 religious institution there near Solano, I can't remember which one, is it 5 Campus Crusade or something like ... is that what it is. And then of 6 course there's that deli on the corner. 7 8 Lowell: Yes. 9 10 Scholz: So that is a commercial establishment. I was thinking of the next block in 11 section 4 there which definitely has some older houses including a very 12 nice adobe which is absolutely falling apart right now. Okay, well I wanted 13 to find that out. Aren't the university's plans already set? For instance, 14 the hotel is a go I understand. The university announced this morning that 15 they were selling the bookstore to Barnes and Noble and I think the idea is 16 to build a new bookstore rather than to use the one in the student union. 17 18 Lowell: That's what we've heard and tentatively I think the location for that is also 19 ... 20 21 Scholz: At the corner of Jordan and University. 22 23 Lowell: Yes. 24 25 Scholz: Yes. 26 27 Lowell: Right on. 28 29 Scholz: And then they want to build a Domenici Center which I assume would take 30 out that other parking lot. Well, if the university's plans are already set, 31 then what are we talking about? 32 33 Lowell: We're talking about creating a theme between the City and the university 34 so that there are complementary uses and activities for pedestrians. One 35 of the things that the NMSU Master Plan seeks to do that is different with 36 all of the buildings that face University Avenue is to have those with their 37 main entrances on University, setback in some cases to provide enough 38 space for pedestrian activity on the sidewalks. 39 40 Scholz: Well, that's interesting because if you want to serve the campus then it 41 seems to me then you want the doors on campus rather than on the 42 outside. I think it would be very inconvenient if I were a student to have to 43 walk around the building in order to get in. 44 7 I Lowell: Well I think there will be multiple entrances, but there will be a face on 2 University Avenue which is a very different concept that's conveyed in 3 their master plan, their 2006 master plan. 4 5 Scholz: Okay, well, so what you're asking us to look at is not the south side of 6 University but the north side of University. 7 8 Lowell: North side of University, yes. 9 10 Scholz: Okay. How would you know if round two is inconclusive? I didn't get ... 11 couldn't understand that, or I didn't understand that. 12 13 Lowell: Well, for instance if as a result of round one there are conflicting goals, for 14 instance push more traffic through but make it pedestrian friendly. They'll 15 have to be strategies for resolving that because additional lanes of traffic 16 are not conducive to a pedestrian district. So there's a potential for issues 17 to arise during the public participation period that would need to be 18 resolved. 19 20 Scholz: Okay. I think I mentioned this in the work session we had two months 21 ago, has the university talked about bridges at all? 22 23 Lowell: No, they have not, not in this (inaudible). f 24 25 Scholz: Well, I mention that, in the engineering building, I don't know which one, 26 but I was teaching in there a couple of years ago, there's a wonderful 27 design that the engineering students put together of a very simple 28 pedestrian bridge which would probably be located between, I think, 29 Jordan and Solano, I think that was the idea. Because that's one of those 30 long dead stretches or actually perhaps between Solano and the next 31 street, whose name I can't read on there. And the goal was to provide you 32 know transit across University Avenue instead of having students run into 33 the median as they do right now and stand there and hope they won't get 34 hit. Because it's a very dangerous place. Now they're all young people, of 35 course, and they don't think they're going to be hit, but nevertheless, 36 would really like to see a more creative approach, you know, than simply 37 building buildings on both sides, you know, and putting a median strip in or 38 something like that. 39 40 Lowell: And I think that that really is the focus of this plan. The corridor is the 41 main feature of the plan and so this is an opportunity to really look at how 42 it functions as a corridor, how it functions to engage pedestrian activity, 43 how it functions to merge the City with the university. And that's also the 44 reason why we're inserting a Charette-style meeting so that we can look at 45 design options for the roadway and design options for the intersections to 8 { 1 ensure that traffic will move, but also that pedestrians and cyclists are 2 safe. 3 4 Scholz: Right. The other problem of course is the parking lots that now have 5 access off of University Avenue. I use the one off of Jordan because I 6 work in Milton Hall, but there are a number of people who turn kind of in 7 the middle of the block to that one behind what is it, that's next to the art 8 building there, and that causes a great deal of jam. You know I've gone 9 through it at noon or at 1:00 and sometimes the traffic is backed up 10 virtually from Espina to Locust. You know it doesn't seem like the 11 University Plan accounts for the traffic. In fact, the University Plan is 12 probably wiping out half of the parking that exists. I don't know where 13 those cars are going to go. You know I mean I drive to work because its 14 convenient, I could probably walk if I had the time or ride my bicycle or 15 something, and so do most other people. You know I wonder what's 16 happening there. What's the plan to deal with the traffic and the parking 17 lots? 18 19 Lowell: Actually, the last section of the NMSU Master Plan has a very large 20 section on parking projections and structures that they intend to build. 21 They're really going to be reconfiguring their parking plan according to the 22 Master Plan; more structures, perimeter parking, shuttles, and so forth on 23 the interior of the campus. 24 25 Scholz: Commissioner Shipley. 26 27 Shipley: I would just also say that the focus is, I mean from what I see driving up 28 and down University is you're going to add more businesses along the 29 north side of University. Those businesses are going to have to have a 30 place to park and the students that are residing in the apartments and the 31 small houses and things on the north side are going to migrate across that 32 street and all you're going to do by adding more commercial businesses 33 along that street is create more traffic on University. And it's already, you 34 know, at key times of the day it's a nightmare. So to me this is 35 counterproductive unless you're going to build a little bypass around there 36 and make that a pedestrian-friendly community that everybody can walk 37 on campus and go across University and take the traffic off of University. 38 That's why I said we've got really nothing to look at yet. I haven't got any 39 idea what you're trying to accomplish. But just from my experience and 40 I'm not on the campus every day, but I'm through there a couple of times a 41 week I drive through there to go to Valley or something from where I live 42 and it's always busy and you always have to look out and there are always 43 people that are going too fast and kids trying to get across the street and 44 it's just a formula for a disaster at some point in time. 45 9 I Lowell: We agree and if I could just say that this planning process has been 2 initiated right here right now by listening to your comments. We don't 3 really have any plans in place for what's going to happen with University, 4 but this Plan needs to respond to your concerns, the public's concerns, the 5 business' concerns, and then make good decisions based on that input for 6 what's next. 7 8 Shipley: And I would also agree that the architecture along Jordan is very imposing 9 because as it is now there are green spaces and the kids can stop and sit 10 down and read a book or if they're waiting on a bus, they've got a place to 11 go. If you put strictly buildings right up to the sidewalk you're going to 12 have no place for the kids to stay to wait when any weather gets inclement 13 and gets rainy. They're going to be you know very few places to go to get 14 out of that. And I kind of agree. I think that buildings should be set back 15 along there so it's a little more open and there are places that they can 16 move about without being all concentrated in one area on the sidewalk. 17 18 Scholz: Commissioner Iserman. 19 20 Iserman: I have a question or a suggestion, I don't know. Referring to the buildings 21 that but up to the street, that corridor thing, to me that looks like 22 Tiananmen Square. It looks like a communist thing, that's the way they do 23 things. But that's nothing. But the other thing I was wondering about is 24 perhaps thinking about, I know the University of Arizona, the Arizona 25 State, numerous universities around the country end up having to shut 26 those kind of streets down and turn them in, not part of the university but 27 they don't try to increase the traffic on them, they try to decrease the traffic 28 on them and make them safe, and a place where the 30,000 students that 29 we have now have a place to go and enjoy. Have things there that are 30 meant for them, the whole area. I know we've got major problems with 31 east/west traffic in this town, but I don't think increasing university traffic is 32 going to be any kind of an answer. You're just going to create more 33 danger. I don't know why nobody's gotten killed up there yet. 34 35 Scholz: They're the quick and the dead you know. 36 37 Iserman: They're young and quick. 38 39 Scholz: They are, yes. Commissioner Beard. 40 41 Iserman: I stay away from there. I'm old and slow. 42 43 Beard: I'm from District 2. That's District 2 there. And so I go up University and 44 Union and I think Union is also a major problem and it's going to become 45 more of a problem with the hotel and the civic center that's going in there, 46 but I agree with my colleague in the universities that I have attended they 10 AWk I try to keep the businesses away from the major streets that are going 2 through and beside the universities instead of what we're doing here and 3 putting the businesses on University Avenue. Now 1 know those streets 4 north of University Avenue are super narrow and it's hard just to get one 5 car through there let alone trying to pass a car. I think we ought to look at 6 widening some of those streets back there significantly so that we could 7 possibly put some of the business back north of University Avenue. It may 8 take a while for people to grasp and do that, but I think we need to be 9 moving away from the University Avenue. As far as Union, I think Union is 10 a loser, tell you the truth. I mean we've already done a major ... you can't 11 improve that one. 12 13 Lowell: Well, we sure hope you all participate in this process because your ideas 14 all need to be listened to and evaluated. 15 16 Scholz: Well, I appreciate your presentation, Ms. Lowell. I agree though and 1 17 hadn't gotten that far in terms of you know shutting off access to the street. 18 It's possible that you know there could be some way of rerouting traffic 19 because it is the major problem and I think if we add businesses or allow 20 more businesses there we will add more traffic. 21 22 Beard: Incidentally, I don't know if you have these numbers and I don't know what 23 they are today, but I know several years ago that there was an average of 24 one accident on University Avenue per day. And my family has had three 25 accidents on it, been rear ended three times on University Avenue. 26 27 Lowell: Part of the data that we're going to present at the kickoff meeting has to do 28 with accident statistics and all along University between 1-25 and 1-10 the 29 accident rate is quite high and the concern of course within the City and 30 within the university is pedestrian safety because there have been a 31 number of conflicts. Fortunately, no one has been killed, but it is of urgent 32 concern. 33 34 Scholz: Well, one of the things that building close to the sidewalk will do is slow 35 traffic, because it gives the perception of a narrower corridor. I've seen 36 traffic studies for years that emphasize this, so you can have the same 37 speed limit in open country as you have in the City, and in open country 38 people will simply drive faster because it's more open, you know, they 39 don't feel constrained. So there may be some advantage to that, but it 40 doesn't do anything to lessen the flow of traffic. Well, if we have no more 41 questions for Ms. Lowell. Thank you very much for your presentation. 42 43 Lowell: Thank you. 44 45 Scholz: And we will look forward to these meetings, and we'll wear cleaver 46 disguises. 11 APPIL 1 2 IV. TRANSPORT 2040 (LAS CRUCES METROPOLITAN PLANNING 3 ORGANIZATION LONG-RANGE TRANSPORTATION PLAN) 4 5 Murphy: Good evening. My name is Tom Murphy. I'm the Senior Planner with the 6 Las Cruces Metropolitan Planning Organization. I'd like to thank you for 7 inviting us here to present to you this evening. With me also presenting 8 will be Andy Hume, Associate Planner with the MPO and Caeri Thomas, 9 also Associate Planner with the MPO. The reason that we are here this 10 evening is we're updating our Long-Range Transportation Plan. It's a 20- 11 year plan. We're required to update it every five years. And as part of that 12 process we like to go out and meet with the stakeholders. As one of the 13 bodies that reviews planning issues in the area and as evidenced by your 14 last discussion, transportation issues play a major part in that. We'd like to 15 have this opportunity to meet with you, go over our plans, and get your 16 feedback on how we need to craft our updated plan that will be due in May 17 2010. So right now we're at the beginning of that process. We're meeting 18 with stakeholders throughout the region, and you are one of our stops. 19 What we're going to do is we're going to give you a little 20 background on the MPO just in case some of you are not familiar. I know 21 many of you have been on this body for years, are familiar with seeing the 22 Major Thoroughfare Plan and how it relates to proposed developments 23 that you are called upon to evaluate. We're also going to go over the 24 framework of our planning process. We're going to show you some of the 25 technical tools including crash rate analysis that we use in formulating our 26 Long Range Plan. 27 So to get into this, the Metropolitan Planning Organization, we are a r 28 federally mandated body that does transportation planning for the region. 29 We're multi-jurisdictional. Our leadership comes from the City of Las 30 Cruces, Dona Ana County, and the Town of Mesilla. MPOs are required 31 in all areas over 50,000 in population. The Las Cruces area has had an } 32 MPO in place since 1982 and we've had Long Range Plans in place since E 33 1994, updated in 2000, updated in 2005, and the latest update that we're 34 working on currently for 2010. As you can see here ... probably most of 35 you have seen this in one form or another, this is our Major Thoroughfare 36 Plan. 37 As a federally mandated planning agency, they also give us some 38 regulations of things that our Long Range Plan must take into account. 39 We must take into account decisions that support economic vitality, 40 increase the safety of the transportation system, increase accessibility and 41 mobility options, protect and enhance the environment, promote 42 consistency with plan growth and economic development, enhance 43 system integration and connectivity, promote efficient system 44 management operations, emphasize system preservation - that means 45 kind of take care of the existing transportation system prior to adding new 46 capacity, and then finally increase the security of the transportation x 12 W 0 1 system. So those are what we are charged with including into our 2 transportation planning process. I'm going to turn this over to Andy, he's 3 going to go over kind of some of the transportation principles which also 4 help guide the process, and then Caeri will go over the technical tools that 5 we use, and then after that we're going invite you down with a hand-held 6 mike to kind of look at our plans and then give us some on the ground 7 feedback. I'll turn you over to Mr. Hume. 8 9 Hume: Good evening. Just to make one note, we want to try and make this as 10 interactive as possible so I'll start by throwing out a question. Tom 11 mentioned that you create an MPO when you have 50,000 or more people 12 in an urban area. What are the five MPOs that affect the state of New 13 Mexico? Does anybody maybe know some of those? We already talked 14 about Las Cruces, so that's a gimme. Anybody have any ideas what the 15 other four are? 16 17 Beard: Santa Fe. 18 19 Hume: Santa Fe. 20 21 (inaudible) Albuquerque. 22 23 Hume: Albuquerque. 24 25 Beard: Roswell. 26 27 Hume: Not Roswell. 28 29 Iserman: Las Vegas. 30 31 Bustos: Rio Rancho. 32 33 Hume: Rio Rancho is part of Albuquerque. Farmington. I heard Farmington. 34 Yep. There's one more. Our neighbors to the south. The EI Paso MPO 35 actually comes up into south central Dona Ana County and a little bit of 36 Otero County. So those are the five MPOs that affect the state of New 37 Mexico. So we work very closely with El Paso MPO since actually our two 38 boundaries coincide with each other. They actually are contiguous, so we 39 work very closely with them. 40 So let's talk a bit about planning principles because everything 41 revolves around a trip and a trip has a very specific definition. To have a 42 trip you must have a mode, an origin, and a destination. So you're going 43 somewhere, you're leaving some place, and somehow you've got to get 44 from one place to the other. And so without any of these items you can't 45 have a trip. And if you notice a trip is a one-way direction, hence the term 46 round trip, of course everyone's familiar with that term. But what we want 13 1 to talk about as the MPO is multimodal. Certainly right now 85-90% of all 2 trips are made in the personal automobile. So, what do we talk about 3 when we're talking about multimodalism? Well we're talking about transit. 4 We're talking about walking, bicycling, as well as the personal automobile. 5 There are certainly a lot of factors that are affecting trip selection today 6 and more specifically mode selection on those trips. And so when we look 7 at multimodal transportation planning, certainly things begin with the car, 8 but if you look and we'll talk about these in our plans, we also have a 9 bicycle facilities plan, and we also have a trail system plan in which we're 10 trying to encourage other modes of transportation. And also Caeri works 11 a lot with the transit system here with the RoadRUNNER transit. So these 12 are all factors that go into creating a trip. Now think for just a moment, 13 what trips did you take today and how did you take them? So probably 14 you had a trip from home to work and it was probably made in an 15 automobile. Did you go somewhere for lunch? Probably. Was it close by, 16 were you able to walk to it? Perhaps you took a trip on RoadRUNNER 17 transit today. All of these add up and we'll use terms as we talk later on 18 like vehicles miles traveled. We'll talk about traffic volumes. Volume to 19 capacity ratios. These are all technical terms, but each trip that you take 20 every day adds up in all of these terms. Just kind of wanted to set sort of 21 a baseline understanding of how transportation is affected. How trips are 22 made, how traffic is generated. 23 Certainly, there are a lot of challenges that we face when we're 24 talking about transportation planning and also implementing transportation 25 plans. You all had some excellent ideas tonight about the transportation 26 situation on University and the surrounding areas. Those are just a drop 27 in the bucket of all the challenges that we face and this by no means is an 28 exhaustive list that we're looking at now. So, when we're talking about 29 how we make our trips, where our trips start and end, all of these issues 30 affect every single trip that we make and visa versa. They're all tied up 31 with each other. So in order to try and address these items we look at a 32 goal oriented approach to encouraging multimodalism. I'm not going to 33 read all of this, but multimodalism connectivity, terms like complete 34 streets, these are all ideas that we look at as transportation planners to 35 find good balances between where trips are starting and ending, and how 36 people are making trips. And I'm sure as you've heard oil prices are going 37 down but gas prices are still going up, so will that impact how we make 38 our trips in the future. These are just really interesting questions that we 39 try to look at and address through the goals that you see here on the 40 screen. 41 As Tom mentioned we have a Long Range Transportation Plan 42 which our new plan for 2010 we are calling Transport 2040. This planning 43 document, we have a book that we put together, we call it our MPO 101 44 book. It's called transportation planning fundamentals. In this book, it 45 contains the transportation planning regulations. Tom mentioned 46 SAFETEA-LU. That's what created the transportation regulations that we 14 I use. In the regulations here, we have the framework to create a long- 2 range transportation plan. It has to meet certain minimum criteria for it to 3 be approved ultimately by Federal Highway Administration, Federal 4 Transit Administration, as well as by the state DOT. And also we've 5 learned a lot over the last five years with our current transportation plan, 6 so hopefully our next one will be head and shoulders better. 7 To create a transportation plan we go through a very rigorous four- 8 step participation process, and right now, I'll get the arrow here, we're right 9 here. This slide later has the animation. I've got to remember that. But 10 we are right here at the beginning. We haven't even gone to step one yet. 11 We're still looking at the regulations and fine-tuning some of the goals that 12 we had from the previous plan. We're going to bring some of those 13 forward to sort of create a basis for discussion. They won't all necessarily 14 make it into the new plan, but form a basis for discussion. Also, we look at 15 the existing conditions. Again there was a lot of talk about the existing 16 conditions today of University and how future commercial growth may or 17 may not affect traffic, how it may or may not affect pedestrian and bicycle 18 usage along the roadway and across the roadway. So right now we're just 19 looking at what's going on today. As Tom mentioned, we're beginning to 20 go and gather stakeholder comments, and what we hope this evening to 21 gather from you all are comments. Caeri will be beginning that in just a 22 little bit toward the end of this presentation. The purpose for that is we 23 can't be everywhere all the time. And so we have to ... we want to rather, 24 not have to but want to, rely on everyone's observations or as many 25 observations as we can gather to form the basis of the identification of 26 challenges and follow this whole process all the way to the end. So 27 eventually, we'll end up right over here and we'll have Transport 2040 as a 28 finished document and something that we can use to guide development 29 and transportation issues in the future. With that, I'm going to turn the 30 podium over to Caeri and she's going to be discussing some of the 31 technical tools that we use to identify existing conditions. 32 33 C. Thomas: Hello. Tom Murphy is passing out some maps that go along with some of 34 the example maps that you see on the screen. I'm just going to briefly go 35 over some of the tools we use such as GIS, geographic information 36 systems, and that tool was used to make this map. Traffic modeling 37 software that we use called VISSUM, and then some of the data that we 38 look at whether that's traffic counts, land use, crash data, growth rate, 39 census data. We're looking at quite a lot of information. In this particular 40 map example, and this is just an example of what kind of process we may 41 take, we're looking at traffic volumes and crashes and this is counts of 42 crashes. I believe they're an average over a three-year period. So if you 43 look at this map the annual average daily traffic, the grey lines change in 44 size relative to the change in the traffic volumes, so the thicker the line the 45 greater the traffic volume. And same thing with the points where you have 46 one to five counts the smallest dot and 26-47 the largest dot. So just 15 1 observationally, we can look at something like this and we can see where 2 some of the high counts are. But if we're not looking at it relative to the 3 traffic volumes then it's not quite as useful. So our next step with 4 something like this might be, if you look at Telshor and Lohman that's a 5 large dot and on EI Paseo and Idaho that is as well. But when we look at 6 the traffic volumes, we have 30,000 around, 50,000 around traffic counts 7 and so the fact that EI Paseo and Idaho has significantly lower volumes 8 therefore has a much higher crash rate. And so that may be something 9 that we can use as we go along to look at our priorities as far as 10 intersections and crash data that may be useful when looking at the region 11 as a whole. 12 The next map that you have has traffic volumes and land use. 13 We've already talked a little bit about how these are very intertwined and 14 very linked. And you can see some of the patterns of different types of 15 activities. For example, the red areas are general sales and service, so 16 you're going to have quite a lot of commercial for example in those areas. 17 Telshor/Lohman which again is a very auto oriented commercial 18 intersection and we have quite a lot of traffic volumes on Lohman/Amador, 19 in fact it's the highest in the area. So if we go even a step further than that 20 we can take a lot of this land use data and the transportation network and 21 bring it into a traffic modeling software. I don't have a map for you up 22 there to look at, but I do have one on the screen. This particular map is 23 showing the volume to capacity ratio, so what's the current volume on the 24 transportation network, what's the current traffic, and what can it manage, 25 what can it hold. It's showing you that ratio with the different colored lines 26 from green to brown. Another thing that can be very useful with the traffic 27 model is that now we can take particular links and add them or detract 28 them and take a look at the traffic volumes and see how they disperse 29 across the whole regional network. We could also for example take a look 30 at land use and we could add various types of what we would call trip 31 generators that Andy talked about, and that too can affect how the traffic is 32 dispersing across the network. So we can take a look at some of those 33 things. 34 The last thing I wanted to look at before we get into a really more 35 thorough discussion and get your feedback is the growth. We're looking at 36 a Long Range Transportation Plan, so keep in mind we're looking at a 20- 37 year horizon here. That's a long way into the future. With our Major 38 Thoroughfare Plan we've ...if you've seen the current one, we have quite 39 a lot of proposed thoroughfares on the East Mesa and it has so happened 40 that there's been a lot of growth in that area. So hopefully that was 41 planned fairly well. But to get a good sense of the growth in this area and 42 take a look at some of the things we're dealing with, this is a photo from 43 1955 and the main roadway I don't know how well you can see it, but the 44 main roadway that you can see sort of on the eastern edge is Solano. 45 And as you can see there is virtually nothing else past Solano. The next 46 one is 1960, right here if you can see my mouse pointer, that's Solano. So 16 i 1 we have a little bit of growth occurring here and here for example. And 2 then what's the major difference that you can see in this photo that wasn't 3 in the last one? 4 5 Scholz: The interstate. But actually, the interstate wasn't built in 1960. 1 have a 6 feeling this picture is later than 1960. The interstate was built I believe in 7 '63. 8 9 Beard: I think it was either '63 or '64. 10 11 Scholz: Sorry about that. 12 13 C. Thomas: That's okay. I mean around the '60's the interstate was built. 14 15 Scholz: Right. The reason I know that is because when they began replacing the 16 bridges on 1-10 a couple of years ago they talked about the original 17 bridges being built in '64 and they were replacing 40 years later, so I'm 18 assuming that 1-25 was built around the same time. 19 20 C. Thomas: So they probably maybe put it purposely a little bit away from the City but 21 as we go along now we have 1972 and all this is filling in, getting closer 22 and closer to the interstate. And then the next 1989 and I don't know how 23 well you can this either, but there looks like there sort of maybe the dirt 24 road of Telshor on that very eastern portion there. 25 26 Scholz: I think that's the dam actually. But Telshor was finished in (inaudible) the 27 mall was built in '81. 28 29 Beard: '81. 30 31 Scholz: And Telshor was (inaudible) shortly after that. 32 33 C. Thomas: And that's exactly right now, we have the dam and there we have one of 34 the pretty major change. And so then the last one is just, I'm giving you ... 35 this is the closest I have of today, this is 2004, but we've looked at it over a 36 40 year period roughly, but even if you let's say start at the 70's seen 37 pretty significant growth here that we need to plan for in terms of our 38 thoroughfare system, in terms of our public transportation. We're now on 39 to getting you're feedback. So if can ... if you wouldn't mind coming 40 around the table that would be less for us, unless you have any real 41 pertinent questions you'd like to ask us at the moment. 42 43 Shipley: Mr. Chairman. 44 45 Scholz: Yes. 46 17 I Shipley: I just have one question. The gentleman that spoke second, I apologize, 2 but I didn't get the names written down so, you said the goal was to guide 3 development and ... and I didn't get the and. I was curious as to what that 4 was. 5 6 Hume: Guide development of the transportation network. I think it was of rather 7 than and ... of the transportation network. { 8 9 Evans: Mr. Chairman, I have a question. How does your organization the MPO 10 work with the City transportation, or they do all the analysis and the traffic 11 studies and stuff? I mean are you guys a separate organization or a part 12 of that or how does that work? 13 14 Murphy: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Evans, we are a separate organization. 15 Although fiscally we are housed within the City's Community Development 16 Department, we take our lead from the aforementioned policy committee 17 that's governed by elected officials from the City, the Town of Mesilla, and 18 Dona Ana County. So our purpose and it is for us ... we're a regional 19 forum where all three governments can come together and cooperatively 20 make decisions on transportation. Because many of the transportation 21 issues are not limited to jurisdictional lines so we have been created as a 22 regional planning organization to address when transportation crosses the 23 regional lines. We also do the various entities, the City, the County, the 24 state DOT, and ourselves, we all do corridor studies depending upon the 25 particular situation. It may be more appropriate for one body to do it than 26 another depending on the circumstances. 27 28 Scholz: Well, that leads me to my question. I'll get to you Commissioner Beard in 29 just a moment. What authority do you have? 30 31 Murphy: Mr. Chairman I'd hesitate to call it that we have authority. We are a 32 regional body where like I said advisory decisions can be made 33 cooperatively. I know that for instance in both the City and the County 34 subdivision ordinances there are references to the Transportation Plan 35 which determine the amount of right-of-way that is dedicated in a 36 subdivision plat. But that authority actually comes from the government 37 body, be it the City or be it the County. The MPO in and of itself has no 38 authority. It's all depending upon what our members take from our plans. 39 We are required to exist in order for Federal transportation money to be 40 spent in the area. And I think that's probably our major I guess leverage in 41 having our plans implemented. But the real authority rests with the local 42 governments. 43 44 Scholz: Can you withhold Federal money if the City doesn't comply or? 45 f t. 18 I Murphy: We do not withhold. It would be a matter of the Federal Highway 2 Administration, the U.S. Department of Transportation, saying that you do 3 not meet the planning requirements for it and they would do the 4 withholding. 5 6 Scholz: Okay. Commissioner Beard, then Commissioner Shipley. 7 8 Beard: On that map that you have up there right now under the legend, 9 intersection crash count average, what is the average, average per week, 10 month, year? 11 12 Murphy: It's a three-year average. 13 14 Beard: A three-year average. 15 16 Crane: It's an annual figure in other words. 17 18 Murphy: It's an annual figure, yes. So for instance, and I don't forget the primary 19 but you could see the big dot there at the corner of Idaho and EI Paseo, 20 that's looking at the crashes per year averaged over a three year period. 21 You say one year there was 10 crashes, another year there was you know 22 20 and then another year 15, you would have 15 average crashes. 23 24 Beard: I understand the period, but the average is per year. 25 26 Murphy: Per year, yes. 27 28 Scholz: By the way, the lights were out this evening when I came through the 29 intersection of EI Paseo and Idaho. And people were being very polite, 30 stopping. Instead of running the red lights like they often do. 31 32 Beard: I question some of these pink dots then because you know Del Rey and 33 Mars intersection is super hazardous. And there's not a pink circle there 34 at all. 35 36 C. Thomas: It could be lack of the data so far. We've looked primarily so far at the 37 thoroughfare intersections and we haven't done all of them. So it could be 38 that there's just no data for that particular intersection. 39 40 Beard: So this is incomplete. 41 42 C. Thomas: We started in the City and some of the major thoroughfare intersections. 43 44 Beard: Okay. Then the road, Amador, if you continue Amador past Telshor up to 45 Roadrunner. Doesn't show hardly any traffic there. 46 19 I Murphy: That's probably got to be an expansion of the data. That's not yet been 2 put into this particular map. Yes, there is a good deal of traffic east of 3 Telshor on Lohman. 4 5 Scholz: Yes, considerable volume going all the way past Roadrunner now, and as 6 soon as Sonoma Ranch is opened it'll be all the way to Sonoma Ranch I'm 7 sure. Okay, what do you want us to do here? Oh, one more question, I'm 8 sorry. Commissioner Shipley. 9 10 Shipley: Okay, so how often is this updated? In other words, this is 2005, 2004 to 11 '06, so I mean how often do you update this? 12 13 Murphy: The data set is based on the latest from 2006 crashes. This is one of our 14 relatively new technical tools that we are you know we've got in line and 15 it's going to be one of those things that once we get it fully implemented 16 we'll have it constantly updated. 17 18 Shipley: Where do you get your data from? 19 20 Murphy: We get our data from the University of New Mexico. There's a division 21 within the University of New Mexico that collects statewide all the traffic 22 incident data. 23 24 Shipley: From the police departments? 25 26 Murphy: Yes, from the police departments. 27 28 Shipley: Okay. The other question is, do you do anything, do you review 29 annexation plans and that for ... or do you assist with any kind of ... write 30 opinions as far as if there's a major annexation or a new high school going 31 to open up, do you look at the traffic analysis for that? 32 33 Murphy: We are involved in the annexation process mainly from a standpoint of 34 implementing the thoroughfare plan. The actual, what you would know as 35 a traffic impact analysis is something that really is compelled to be looked 36 at by the design standards by the Public Works Department. 37 38 Shipley: And what size is your Staff? 39 40 Murphy: We're here. 41 42 Shipley: Okay. Three. Okay. 43 44 Murphy: And we do have a planning technician that oversees our traffic count 45 program and he's not here. 46 20 1 Scholz: Commissioner Iserman, go ahead. 2 3 Iserman: I have a nuts and bolts question. Seems like I've heard in the past that 4 there were plans some time ago here in Las Cruces to get traffic beyond 5 the ... traffic coming from the west to get it around to Highway 70 going 6 around the north of town. I don't know if that's a valid thing or not, that's 7 what I understand was in planning. Ex-Councilman Frietze told me it was. 8 But of course nothing's happened and it's probably been in planning for 20 9 years. I don't know if that's viable or what anybody's thinking about ... 10 that's a tremendous amount of heavy traffic comes right though the center 11 of town. 12 13 Murphy: Right, and that's ... the north bypass is something that actually is kind of 14 ... is somewhat referenced on our Major Thoroughfare Plan. It's been the 15 vision of some of the people that have contributed ... you know 16 stakeholders who have contributed to in the past and it's likely to continue 17 on into the future. As far as when it gets built, that's really going to come 18 down to kind of when the benefits of it outweigh the cost of building the 19 new roadway. And I think that probably leads us to a good segue to invite 20 you to come on down and actually look at all the maps in total and then 21 give us your specific suggestions on which corridors are missing, what do 22 we need to put on there that's not on there. What's on there that needs to 23 be taken off? What's on there and that continues to be a good idea to 24 show? And not only our thoroughfare plan but our bicycle facilities plan 25 and our trail plan as well. 26 27 Iserman: You mentioned ... pardon me, but you mentioned cost versus practicality 1 28 guess you'd say. Well, it seems to me in the last number of years, 29 however long this has been going on, costs have ... every year the costs 30 quadruple, probably, getting close to that. And so okay we wait another 31 10 years and instead of costing $50 million, it'll cost $300 million. It's kind 32 of like the bridges up there on north, what is it, north Sonoma Ranch 33 Boulevard. 34 35 Scholz: Crossing the arroyo. 36 37 Iserman: Yeah, they wanted to build those six, seven years ago. They would've 38 cost X amount of money and they didn't do it and it just went on and on 39 and on. And then they got really expensive. 40 41 Murphy: Part of our planning process does involve prioritization of projects. I mean 42 we are allocating, we're looking at allocating scarce transportation dollars 43 and this is the process where you tell us which are the most important to 44 build now. I think in past processes things like the north bypass although 45 have been mentioned as something that's been needed, it's not risen to 46 the top, where as a project like US 70 you know was rated as a top project 21 P I and that one's the one that's gotten implemented. So really the process 2 begins you know, process of prioritizing it really begins here. That's the 3 reason we're here before you this evening. 4 5 Iserman: Thank you. 6 7 Scholz: Okay. If there are no more questions let's go down and take a look at 8 those maps and give them some input. 9 10 Hume: As you're moving down here we want to keep in mind that we are 11 recording this meeting. We have a handheld mike that we'll pass around 12 so if you have comments, make sure you have the microphone as we 13 make them. Also, we have pens and markers. We're encouraging you to 14 please draw on the maps. Make notes. If you want to draw a new line for 15 a roadway, add arrows, any of these types of things. This is an interactive 16 process, so please grab a marker and we'd love to have you draw on 17 these. We will also be recording some notes and we'll make sure to get a 18 copy of the minutes also when this is done so we can have this as part of 19 the record of our public involvement. So with that, we're ready for your 20 comments and questions. 21 22 Scholz: I'll kick it off. The north bypass reminds me of a situation that they ran into 23 in Denver a few years back when they built that road halfway around 24 Denver on the east side, you've probably driven on that. The one that 25 goes past the airport and everything. Past the new airport that is. And 26 they wanted to build it in a circle around Denver and of course, they ran 27 into opposition from some of the elite suburbs west of Denver and 28 consequently it's never going to be built. I think the problem we're facing 29 is that while the City is growing east, that's quite clear, the City is also 30 growing west. And there are going to be new developments out here 31 pretty soon which are going to exceed or block the projected path of 32 something like this. And I think this is the thing that as planning and 33 zoning people or community development people we have to consider that 34 you know we allow corridors or potential pathways to remain open, 35 because I don't want a freeway in my backyard. I grew up in Chicago 36 where they destroyed neighborhoods by building the Kennedy, the 37 Eisenhower and the Stevenson Expressway, and some of those 38 neighborhoods have never recovered. And I don't want to see that done 39 here, you know I don't think that's sensible. As a matter of fact I don't 40 think it's necessary, so I think we have to think in terms of corridors, you 41 know leaving corridors open if we can, or relatively open, in order to 42 facilitate some of this planning. 43 44 Iserman: I'm just going along with you. Even Alamogordo has a bypass. Dallas 45 built one that must have been 30 miles out of town. This was back in 46 1970's, early '80's. It is now jammed to the max with people. And s 22 1 everybody when they built it says, "Oh man this town will never get clear 2 out there." It must've been 30 miles south of town. And then I look at 3 Alamogordo, they've got one. 4 5 Scholz: And they're already building out to it, too. 6 7 Iserman: Yeah. Because built it and they'll come. You know and it's like 8 Alamogordo has a dog park, we don't. 9 10 Beard: On the thoroughfare there's always been and that's 25 years that they 11 were going to connect 1-25 with 1-10 this way some how. Is that shown on 12 one of these maps? So that is a ... so this has been talked about for so 13 long and like he had indicated it's getting harder and harder to put in. 14 15 Hume: One of the things that we want to take into consideration as we look at 16 these maps is they are in two dimensions. We also have a lot of concerns 17 with topographical issues, different relief. There are mountains in the way 18 and those type of things. So we also need to make sure we keep that in 19 our thoughts too as we're looking at routes. In this particular instance too 20 there might be ... I think in this area there's also the Paleozoic track ways 21 and there are other cultural and historical issues as well which could be 22 one of the reasons why it hasn't materialized yet. But I just wanted to 23 throw that in the mix. Sometimes we look at things in two dimensions and 24 it makes sense to connect point A to point B, but there might be other 25 situations going on. I just wanted to throw that information out to the 26 group. 27 28 Shipley: I would think that one of the issues here or one of the things that you're 29 trying to do, the challenges, is try to reduce the traffic flow on the surface 30 streets and obviously a rail link of some type going either to EI Paso and 31 going to Albuquerque would be an easy way to do that because people 32 spend ... you have a high speed rail, it takes you three hours to drive to 33 Albuquerque, now you could cut that to half that time and that would work. 34 And the same thing going to EI Paso. A lot of people could go that way 35 that would take it off of 1-10 and the back way through Anthony and the 36 Anthony Gap. But the real key is to look at you know I think the bypass on 37 that side in time is necessary because that would take a lot of truck traffic 38 around. It would build out to that, but it's going to build out that way 39 anyhow with the things that are going on Picacho and that area. It is 40 inevitable and if you don't do it now while there are very minimal things out 41 there you're going to fight it later and it's going to be more expensive and 42 you're going to get a lot of resistance from the public. The same thing 43 goes up here, there needs to be you know east/west corridors across ... 44 how we're going to be back and forth across town because we want to 45 keep the focus downtown and if we're trying to keep the downtown active 46 you got to be able to get to the downtown and right now you've maybe four 23 i I or five areas that you can traverse. As the area builds up here and 2 doubles and triples in size 10 to 20 or 30,000 or 40,000 more people, 3 that's half the size of this town now. It's all going to be lopsided and you're t 4 not going to be able to get to that point right there. So the nodes that you 5 want to have, have got be laid out now so that you can build a 6 transportation network to get there. 7 8 Beard: This is thinking outside the box now. I got two comments on this particular 9 item. Ray just mentioned that the railroad train. This train that goes 10 through here, I live out here on South Main Street and when the train 11 comes by all these lights turn green for northbound/southbound traffic. I 12 can get from one end of town to the center of town just like that. This town 13 doesn't have hardly any timed stoplights. If we could time some of those 14 stop lights I think we could alleviate a lot of the problems. Okay, so, and 15 this is, you can actually experiment, when that train's going north and 16 south the lights all turn green for you and you just buzz right on through. 17 And if you go to Mesa, Arizona, they're moving traffic like you wouldn't 18 believe, but it's because the lights are staying green. I mean they're 19 getting people across town. They really are. It's absolutely amazing how 20 many cars they can move in such a short amount of time. 21 22 Hume: I just would like to ask a question of the Commission. First of all, we don't 23 intend this to be a one shot deal. We certainly want to come back and let 24 you know the results of public input and other stakeholders ideas and 25 things like that. Would it be beneficial for us to also come back 26 periodically and share with you ideas, because what you're speaking of is 27 what's called ITS, intelligent transportation systems. And that's actually a 28 very growing field. It's a maturing field. It's still relatively new, but there 29 are certainly opportunities to use that. Would it be beneficial for this group 30 to bring concepts like that back and discuss them in more detail at future 31 meetings, work sessions? F 32 33 Beard: I hadn't finished with my train. I think that train should be eliminated. 34 think that train should go around somehow, go to another City, go around 35 this City, and then make that train track a thoroughfare for the northbound 36 traffic in the City. 37 38 Crane: Does the MPO address questions of railroad transportation? I just happen 39 to look in today to meet a gentleman who had a Santa Fe timetable from 40 1967. It's always been an ambition of mine to see the railroad 41 reestablished at least down to EI Paso for commuter purposes. It took 42 one hour exactly in '67, some of you may know this, one train a day north 43 and one train south. It took exactly one hour to go from EI Paso to Las 44 Cruces. It took another five hours to get to Albuquerque. And railroad 45 people told me that's not going to improve because it's limited to 49 miles 46 an hour because there were no signals. And nobody's going to pay for } I 24 ` 1 that line to be signals. I would like to see the matter of a couple of trains a 2 day in the morning and in the evening set up to go to EI Paso. I know 3 cooperation with Texas, but I suspect it could be made to pay. There are 4 probably enough people ... this town is small enough that people could 5 get to the station. EI Paso's concentrated enough and enough life 6 downtown that there are probably enough people who could benefit from a 7 train taking into the union depot, maybe a little further into town. I'd like to 8 see that done. 9 10 Scholz: Well I'm a big railroad fan, too. My dad used to build model railroads. And 11 I would like to see a high-speed rail link from the EI Paso airport to the 12 spaceport because we're not going to build a new airport here and they're 13 probably not going to build a new airport at the spaceport, though there 14 might be a fly in field for private you know planes and things. And it 15 seems to me to be ... to make a great deal of sense to look at that as you 16 know as a long-term benefit that Las Cruces could benefit from with a stop 17 in Las Cruces and Sunland Park or Santa Teresa could benefit from with a 18 stop down there. This could run up the center of the freeway, you know 19 this is a common way to put trains in urban areas. It was done very 20 effectively in Chicago years ago. In fact, it would've run out to the airport 21 but I remember the cab lobby stopped them at the City limits and 22 prevented them from going to the airport until the '80's when they finally 23 got out there. And now a days the people who live in Chicago, like my 24 sister, she said she never takes her car to the airport anymore. She goes 25 to a park and ride and gets on the train and goes to the airport. It makes 26 sense. I also saw a thing in I think it was Oklahoma City where they built 27 access roads on either side of the freeway like we have in Triviz and 28 Telshor, and then they built crossovers over the freeway. And so they 29 made the access roads one way, kind of like the Gateway system that 30 they have in EI Paso. And I think that's possible on parts of Telshor, 31 particularly north of Lohman. I know we were talking about you know 32 extending what was it, not Spruce but, or was it Spruce. Madrid. Yeah, 33 we were talking about extending Madrid across the dam and all that sort of 34 thing. That's really pie in the sky and extremely expensive. It might be 35 even cheaper to tunnel than it would be to build a bridge. But I think it 36 would be possible to make Telshor a one way north only, north of Lohman 37 and then Triviz a one way south only in the same area and then bridge it 38 with you know bridges across the freeway. I don't know if you're familiar, 1 39 think it is Oklahoma City that has that system. The freeway runs through 40 sort of a depressed area, you know, a dug out area and then the side 41 roads, the frontage roads are higher and then every four blocks or so they 42 have a crossover. And it's a very effective system. Well like downtown EI 43 Paso except downtown EI Paso, they run under the freeway generally with 44 Gateway. But I always thought the Gateway system was a pretty good 45 idea, pretty good compromise considering there already were buildings on 46 both sides and you know that sort of thing. 25 1 2 Iserman: The choo-choo train. We all love choo-choo trains. Lord, I grew up with 3 the Santa Fe Railroad. They used to go through my hometown a 100 4 miles an hour. But the governor's railroad, how much money is it losing? 5 That's my only question there. 6 7 Scholz: Well, I'll speak to that. I don't think that's the point. I don't think public 8 transportation is there to make money. I don't think it can. It's kind of like 9 saying that you know highways should make money. Well they don't. 10 Highways cost money and we subsidize them through gas taxes and 11 property taxes and, you know, vehicle license fees and things like that. 12 And 1 think it has to be that way with public transportation in general. I 13 don't think it'll ever make money. And, you know, I don't think that's a bad 14 thing. Well, it's like asking the garbage system to make money, you know. 15 One of the arguments against recycling here if I can get on my soapbox is 16 that it doesn't make any money. No, it doesn't make any money. But it 17 does contribute to the environment, to saving the environment. It's a thing 18 we haven't gotten through the thick heads in this City I'm sorry to say. But 19 no, I don't think public transportation can pay for itself. I think that's 20 impossible. I think it has to be subsidized. Like other City services. I 21 think we consider it a City service, you know, or a County or regional 22 service ilf we can afford it. It's going to do wonderful things when it gets to 23 Santa Fe though. Have you seen the railroad yards? It's cool. 24 25 Hume: Just to follow-up on your comment, Commissioner Scholz, actually no 26 transportation system of any mode is self-sustaining. All modes are 27 subsidized. So that's a very correct statement that you made. Just 28 wanted to clarify that. No transportation systems ... fully pay for 29 themselves through any of the taxes that we pay. 30 31 Shipley: Turner Freeway is pretty expensive, I'll tell you. 32 33 Hume: Just to clarify, we're talking about public use transportation. That's a toll 34 road, so that's a different setup. But we're talking about regular highways, 35 interstates, public transit, all the public that we consider use for free or 36 even if we pay $0.50 to ride the bus, those type of things. Toll roads are a F 37 different story. 38 39 Shipley: This has helped move traffic but I've noticed that the buses, the public 40 transportation buses, they stop in lane one of the roads and then lane one 41 has to merge into lane two in order to go around it. It's a safety hazard 42 and it also jams up the traffic. Need a bus pull-in. 43 44 Hume: Just so we can clarify for the purpose of the recording, you're talking about 45 bus pullouts where they actually leave the flow of traffic to have 46 passengers come on and off? Okay. There's also another idea I want to 26 I float out there. If you've been to the city of Tucson on a couple of their 2 major roadways, particularly I'm thinking of Broadway, they actually have 3 bus lanes. Its bus, right turn, and bicycle. And vehicles are not allowed to 4 travel in that lane except if they're making an immediate right turn. That 5 could be another possibility for this, but thank you, that's a good comment. 6 7 Murphy: I'd like to add a bit of information to the bus pull out lanes. That would be 8 something that would entail getting more right-of-way on our 9 thoroughfares and perhaps looking at revamping our design standards in 10 the region. That's something that really we'd have to look to you, is that 11 something that's really important to pursue? I think when we come back 12 you know kind of ... just send money ... send us enough money and we'll 13 take care of all the problems. But looking at what are the things that we 14 want to prioritize. 15 16 Scholz: Well looking at the south end of town, particular the University Corridor, 17 one of the things we talked about when we actually passed and I recall 18 Commissioner Beard speaking to this: when we passed the approval of 19 the annexation, when was that in June I think, you were very concerned 20 about the traffic on Union and the additional traffic that would be on 21 University when there would be events there. I don't know what to do 22 about things like that and I don't know that you can do anything about 23 things like that because you're constrained by the size of University 24 Avenue. And if the University Avenue Overlay Plan goes through we're 25 going to be adding businesses and considerably more traffic. What can 26 be done about a situation like that where we're going to put two high traffic 27 buildings, a hotel and a convention center on the same corner? 28 29 Murphy: Well,one of the thoughts that are on the table that the university is also 30 pursuing in their master plan is on 1-10 have a new interchange to the 31 university. It's being termed the Arrowhead Interchange. One of the 32 things that'll do is give another route into the university. So people 33 traveling on the interstate system and going to NMSU don't need to get off 34 at University, and double back. It's one of the things that, I think, if you 35 look at the rest of our plan it's kind of one of the things that we're trying to 36 promote throughout the region is to give travelers options. Options which 37 direction to go, our different plans, options of which mode to use. So by 38 allowing people to choose different routes to get to their destinations you 39 dilute the traffic and you're able to get more people to go. Because 40 currently right now if you want to travel to the university you're going to 41 have to go onto University Avenue. By giving it another means to enter 42 the university, you know you're dividing that traffic in half and then you 43 know people will naturally, automatically choose whatever works best for 44 them. I think one of the things we do is just provide as many options as 45 we can. 46 27 1 Shipley: If I may, Geothermal Road goes from the golf course, which is out here, 2 and it comes down and it goes underneath the highway and it goes 3 through, and you can kind of go around the backside of the campus. 4 You've got a lot of stops through there. But maybe what you need to do is 5 to open this up so that you put a good Collector that goes around there 6 that connects the back side over here because this is the only 7 thoroughfare through the university now. So if you want to go to the 8 university, whether you're coming from the east or you're coming from the 9 west, you're going to get on University at Main street and get on there or 10 Union. And so you know they haven't done much in the way building, you 11 know, a Collector street that'll take traffic that needs to move past the 12 university without it being, you know, caught up in the middle of it. And 13 maybe it's time for them to try to do that and to do something around this 14 side that ties this together. If you just put another exit ramp here to get on 15 and off from there I'd like to see what your plans are. Because right now 16 that's doesn't ... I don't know what it's going to do. The number of 17 students that you have that commute daily don't come generally from out 18 here. They're back over in here somewhere. That's where they're coming 19 from. They're living somewhere here in town. 20 21 Beard: This is growing right in here. And that's true. I use this road and I don't 22 even know what the name of it is. Wells. Okay, I use Wells. It goes 23 under both of the freeways. But it dumps you right there in Tortugas. 24 Okay, getting from Tortugas to Main Street you've got to go through 25 Tortugas, a little tiny narrow street, so the key for using that Wells is to 26 provide a major street to get from over here to Union, or over here to Main 27 Street, you know. And this traffic now is going up to here Union, going up 28 University. Now it could go up here and turn at Tortugas, go through the 29 University to that golf course road and then take off. It would help both 30 Union and it'd help University. Trying to get the little town of Tortugas to 31 put traffic through it is probably going to be difficult. 32 33 Hume: There are a couple of things because some of the comments are 34 centering around the area where the new convention center and hotel is. I 35 A couple of comments I'd like to float: one about that and one about the 36 university in general. First of all, keep in mind too when events are held 37 they're typically off peak hours. So it's not necessarily going to be all of 38 that traffic coming out which will probably take a good amount of time to 39 get out there anyway and when we go to an event we sort of expect to 40 spend a half hour to 45 minutes getting out of the parking lot, but the other 41 thing, too, is it's also going to be ... you have your six guns loaded. But 42 the other thing, though, is that it's probably going to be at 9:00, 10:00 at 43 night when the event gets out, not at 5:00 p.m. when there's also a p.m. 44 peak. So there are other things to think of. Now let me throw one more 45 thing out there too. Remember trips are not just origins and destinations. 46 They're also modes. Now we've talked about cars. We've talked a little bit 28 I about rail, a little bit about transit, what are other modes that could be 2 used in the area to encourage trips by other means I guess is what I'm 3 trying to say. So I want to throw that out there too. 4 5 Shipley: Before we leave this though I'd like to just say there needs to be better ... 6 mean, you talk about event planning. There needs to be better traffic 7 control at events. In other words, there are streets that go ... that have 8 three lanes of traffic and they try to hold them open and put it on one. 9 They could close down, for example, coming off of University into the Pan 10 Am Center. They could have every lane going out when an event is closed 11 and have one place that they could come in and that's because nobody's 12 really coming in to pick up someone that's leaving. They're already there. 13 And what we see is all of the assets around there should be max flowing 14 out and they should be max flowing onto University to get them to 1-25, to 15 get them to 1-10. They don't do that. They leave one lane around which is 16 wasted time and space. And if they would focus on getting, you know, 17 sectioning parking lots that says this parking lot goes, you go out to, and 1 18 don't know what the name of the road is along here, but they take you all 19 the way down to here and then you have to come all the way back along 20 the other side along, was it Triviz. What's this over here? Las Alturas. 21 But, you know, and why? I mean people want to go to the City. They don't 22 want to go, they're not going to EI Paso. But they make them come out 23 and go under and they let them sometimes go under here at Geothermal. 24 There's a thing there and then you have to turn and go back and then 25 intersect and do that. If they would just sit down and say parking lots 26 going to go exit this way and you're going to go that way, and every lane 27 of the street's going to go that way and there's not going to be any traffic 28 that comes in during that 45-minute section until we empty that parking lot. 29 The only place you can come in is right over here, you know, at the main 30 entrance and there's one lane that comes in and that's it and it goes right 31 into the parking lot to the front door, everything else is going out. They 32 could empty those parking lots in 10, 15 minutes. 33 34 Scholz: I think we also have to make the university and the City aware if we get 35 football games at the same time as conventions, you know, we're going to 36 have a real traffic mess on University Avenue. And so obviously that's a 37 scheduling thing, you know, you try to schedule your conventions opposite 38 home games as opposed to you know when home games are there. But 39 that's a matter of managing traffic with existing resources, you know, 1 40 think we're going to have to look at additional resources. And one of the 41 things we haven't talked about is moving sidewalks, you know, slide- 42 walks, or those kinds of things. I don't know how practical they are 43 outdoors in this climate. I don't know if they've been tried as a matter of 44 fact. But I could see that as a people mover, particularly along high 45 density corridors like at the university on University Avenue. Yeah, up and 46 over even. These are a real boon at airports I know. You know, they 29 1 really move people a lot faster and a lot more efficiently. I don't know, just 2 a thought. 3 4 Iserman: I was wondering about ... you're talking about short periods of time when 5 people are leaving the convention center or the whatever you want to call 6 it. You know just a short period of time like 9:00 to 10:00 or something. 7 Well, if that thing is successful I believe there will be things going out there 8 all day long. If it is successful. That's going to change the whole thing f 9 again. 10 11 Scholz: The pink cards are coming out. 12 13 C. Thomas: Okay. What we've usually done at the end of some of our sessions is to 14 have you know after we've discussed all these things, if you have to make 15 a decision on what your top three priorities would be as the MPO Long 16 Range Transportation Planners, what are those top three things that you'd 17 like to see focused on or perhaps even just discussed further? They can 18 be all sorts of things. 19 20 Beard: Before you put ... the train issue. Where the train goes through town and 21 eliminating that railroad track and making it a Major Thoroughfare, I would 22 like you to consider also that when that train goes through town at 23 nighttime it's doing 40 to 45 miles per hour and blowing its horn the whole 24 cotton picking way. It keeps up half this City at nighttime, especially in the } 25 summer time. No, if they bring down to 15 miles an hour they don't have 26 to blow their signal. 27 28 Murphy: That's another transportation priority we could address. There are Federal 29 railroad administration regulations that allow for silent running. 30 Essentially, it would be if the locality decides to double gate the train 31 crossings, then the operator can run that silently. It would take an 32 investment on our part and that could be one of your priorities that you put 33 down, that we look into silent train running I think is ... quiet train, I think, 34 is the actual program, they do it. It's something that they've ... particularly 35 the Fargo Moorehead MPO up in North Dakota, Minnesota, that's one of 36 the big projects that they had done over the recent years. 37 38 Crane: I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but there is a program in 39 some places whereby instead of the train whistling to alert traffic the 40 sound is made at the crossing by sirens heading up and down the street 41 because that alerts the traffic. I live two blocks from the railroad and I 42 sleep through this stuff, believe me. But I don't know if I'd sleep through 43 horns coming right at me as opposed to going at right angles to me. 44 remember in Colorado Springs before the railroads got rerouted there was 45 a ... somebody's trains, one of the two railroads went through there. Went 46 through a residential area and whistled every block and I would agree that 30 Am I was irritating, particularly when you're visiting and not used to it. But they 2 did away with it by rerouting the trains. Yes. Regarding sending the 3 railroad around the City, there are plans to do that in EI Paso, sending 4 through Anthony Gap. I mean this is way ahead, but I don't now who's 5 going to pay for it. 6 7 Hume: Actually, the plans are moving forward from what I understand. I think 8 there was an article in the Bulletin last week or two about that. I believe 9 it's a $300 million dollar investment down in the Santa Teresa area. 10 They're moving the train yards out of downtown EI Paso to southern Dona 11 Ana County. So, yeah, I believe that's what you're talking about. 12 13 Crane: They're going to relocate a lot of the yard work from EI Paso, the two 14 yards there to Santa Teresa, but there's ultimately a plan to send the 15 railroad around through Anthony Gap. I read it somewhere. 16 17 Scholz: I'm wondering if there's any research right now on where automobiles are 18 going to go. That is, I know we're looking at alternate sources of energy 19 and hybridization and that sort of thing, so we're going to cut down on fuel 20 use. But are there any projections on automobile use say 20 years from 21 now, you know, are we going to have more or less, what? Do you know? 22 Any studies on that? Any speculation? 23 24 Murphy: I don't think there are any studies on that. I think the presumption is that 25 alternate fuel sources would be developed. I think there's been a lot of 26 effort to look into transit-oriented development so that, you know, we kind 27 of change the structure of the way we live in our cities, make less 28 automobile traffic necessary, enable people to walk or bike to their 29 services, and then I guess other new sources of energy. But I think right 30 now the mindset is still that we'll still have cars 20 years from now. We'll 31 still have cars 30 years from now. 32 33 Scholz: Forever. Yeah, well, it's what the buggy manufacturers thought, too, right? 34 As a matter of fact in 1903 in Michigan there was something proposed in 35 the state legislature to start a college of horseshoeing. Okay, so there'd 36 be you know an official state educational involvement in horseshoeing. It 37 didn't pass, fortunately. What I was going to say was, has anybody 38 thought about making public transportation fun? I saw a proposal a 39 couple of years ago by a designer, an industrial designer, named Robert 40 Gurr. He designed the first car, what was that car thing in Disneyland with 41 the ... no, not the monorail, no, no, it was the little cars, you know that ran 42 around the roadway. They were like bumper cars, yeah. Anyway, he 43 proposed that we build public transportation that's fun. In other words 44 public transportation has wide screen TV's and individual cells you can 45 plug your Ipod into and, you know, and it serves coffee and all that sort of 46 thing. You know this would attract people to public transportation, you 31 AVAk I know, if it were fun. Now I know people. I used to live in Delaware and 2 people traveled from Wilmington to Washington and Wilmington to New 3 York. I think it was two hours either way and they were always on cars 4 that had club cars and so they could have a drink in the evening or they 5 could have their coffee in the morning and read their paper. And this is 6 before the days of personal (pods and things like that. But I imagine that's 7 what people are using today. Has there been any thought about that? 8 Make public transportation fun. 9 10 Murphy: Yes, I think that's something that public transportation providers are 11 constantly looking for ways to attract rider-ship. I know on certain ... there 12 have been long haul park and ride buses that will have the TV or if any of 13 you have taken a chartered coach, you know there are televisions on 14 those. The Railrunner that's running currently from Belen to Bernalillo, I 15 believe, is set up with wireless internet on it. I know that the rapid ride in 16 Albuquerque also has wireless internet on there. You know I think those 17 are certainly things that can be done. It's great to hear people thinking 18 those types of suggestions. 19 Okay, so it looks like it's kind of winding down. Thank you for 20 taking the time. We really do appreciate the input. This is going to be an 21 ongoing process, so the input is not stopping here. So if other thoughts f 22 occur to you, you know don't hesitate to contact any of us. Our 23 information's on the board. I'll pass out a couple of my cards and Cheryl r 24 always knows how to get ahold of us. Yes, we can make that available 25 through Cheryl. 26 27 Scholz: Thank you very much folks. I really appreciated it. It's been a very good 28 learning experience I think for all of us. It certainly has been good to get 29 your input and get our comments I think. Okay. You want to speak again, 30 Commissioner Shipley? Pardon me? You want to break for five minutes. 31 Okay, we're going to take a five-minute break here. I think we're probably 32 finished aren't we? 33 34 V. DISCUSSION OF OTHER ITEMS. 35 36 Rodriguez: I just need to make a really quick announcement. 37 38 Scholz: Okay. Cheryl's going to make a quick announcement and then we can all 39 go home. 40 41 Rodriguez: The New Mexico Chapter of the American Planning Association is having 42 their annual conference in Ruidoso October 8th through the 10th. On 43 October 8th, they are having a workshop for New Mexico Planning 44 Commissioners. Community Development Department will pay for the 45 registration of any Planning and Zoning Commissioner that is interested in 46 attending this workshop. It's Wednesday October 8th from 9:00 a.m. to 32 1 4:00 p.m. It's at the Ruidoso Convention Center and registration also 2 includes lunch. And so they'll be discussing the roles and responsibility of 3 the Planning Commission, what makes for good decision-making, and 4 recommendation, and update on planning case law in New Mexico. So if 5 you are interested in attending this one-day workshop, please let me know 6 actually by Thursday at noon so I can contact NMAPA and make the 7 appropriate registration available. I know Commissioner Shipley is 8 interested. If you are interested, just e-mail me or call me at the office. 9 10 Scholz: I would urge you to go. I can't make it. I have commitments at school and 11 other places. But Commissioner Shipley said he was interested in going. 12 13 Shipley: Yes, but I was just going to say, if we could figure out a way to do 14 transportation, obviously here's a chance for maybe somebody in the City 15 to get a van and people could go up together. 16 17 Bustos: I would like to go. 18 19 Shipley: And I think it's really important because it's really a training thing, 20 especially for our newer members on the Commission. It'll give them 21 some background and some history in what's going on and places you can 22 turn when you have a question you can go to for that as well. Its $50 23 registration fee is what it is and then they won't pay milage. So if you go 24 you pay your own way. So maybe we could get the City to provide us a 25 van and take us up, bring us back. 26 27 Rodriguez: I'm looking into it, but I can't guarantee it. 28 29 Shipley: Yeah, I understand. 30 31 Scholz: We could lean on our Council people perhaps to do that. 32 33 Shipley: But I would just say I'm a yes for sure. 34 35 Rodriguez: Thank you. 36 37 Crane: I'm a maybe. I will e-mail you. 38 39 Scholz: Okay, anything else? 40 41 Bustos: I'm a maybe, but I'll have to check the date on that. What'd you say, 42 October 8th? 43 44 Rodriguez: It's Wednesday, October 8th. So just e-mail me or call me at the office. 45 46 Scholz: Anything else? 33 AP%L 2 Rodriguez: That's it. 3 4 Scholz: That's it. 5 6 V1. ADJOURNMENT 7:45 7 8 Scholz: We are adjourned. Thank you, gentlemen. We'll see you next week for 9 the regular show. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Chairperson 16 34