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05-04-20161 SOUTH MESQUITE DESIGN REVIEW BOARD 2 May 4, 2016 at 6:00 p.m. 3 4 Following are minutes of the South Mesquite Design Review Board meeting held May 4, 5 2016 in 2007-A, City Hall, 700 N. Main Street, Las Cruces, NM 88001. 6 7 MEMBERS PRESENT: Robert Williams 8 Paul Mach 9 Barbara Kuhns 10 Ernie Campos 11 12 MEMBERS NOT PRESENT: 13 David Chavez 14 Faith Hutson 15 Tony Dahlin 16 17 STAFF PRESENT: Sara Gonzales, CLC Planner 18 Becky Baum, RC Creations, LLC, Recording Sec. 19 20 OTHERS: Frank Belyan 21 Greg Atwell 22 Ralph Biah 23 Jose Lima 24 Steven Cruise 25 Robert Cruise 26 Yanick D'Hoope-Bush and Husband 27 28 I. CALL TO ORDER (6:02 p.m.) 29 30 Williams: Calling the meeting to order at 6:02. 31 32 II. APPROVAL OF MINUTES - April 6, 2016 33 34 Williams: First item on the agenda is the Approval of the Minutes from the April 6th, 35 2016 meeting. Any comments? 36 37 Kuhns: I have one and it's rather petty and I'm not sure, what's the 38 transcriptionist's name again? 39 40 Mach. Becky. 41 42 Williams: Becky. 43 44 Kuhns: I don't know, Becky if I made an error or um someone else did but it's on 45 page 24, line 27 and it should say "Harry Sanchez," not "Chavez." 46 1 1 Baum: Okay. We can make that change in there. 2 3 Kuhns: Okay. Thanks. 4 5 Williams: Any other? 6 7 Campos: I have nothing Mr. Chair. 8 9 Mach: I have nothing. 10 11 Williams: Do we have a motion to approve the minutes as amended? 12 13 Kuhns: I make a motion to approve the minutes as amended. 14 15 Williams: All those in favor? 16 17 Baum: You need a second to the motion. 18 19 Mach: I'll second that. I'll second it. 20 21 Williams: All those in favor? 22 23 MOTION PASSES UNANIMOUSLY. 24 25 Williams: Motion passes. 26 27 III. NEW BUSINESS 28 29 1. Case 65091: Request for approval of a new storage building for a property 30 located on the southeast corner of Mesquite Street and Las Cruces Avenue; 31 a.k.a. 240 N. Mesquite Street; Parcel ID# 02-06356. The subject property is 32 zoned C-2 (General Commercial District) and is located within the Original 33 Townsite of the South Mesquite Overlay District. Submitted by G&T 34 Investments, LLC. 35 36 Williams: Okay. And then the first Item is the Case 65091. 37 38 Gonzales: I'm going to turn off the lights so you can see the pictures there. I'll be 39 presenting Adam's case since he is not here this evening unfortunately, so 40 I'm just talking about it so bear with me if something is (inaudible). This is 41 Case 65091 for a storage structure on 240 North Mesquite. Here is the 42 actual vicinity map that does show the property and the property is located 43 on North Mesquite Street as well as Las Cruces Avenue, on that corner. 44 The property is zoned C-2 which is a general commercial. It does have a 45 single dwelling fronting Las Cruces which is a contributing structure in the 46 State Historic Registry. However, this evening there is no work to be done K 1 on that structure at all. We are only here for the commercial portion of the 2 property since it does have both in which the structure is being built for 3 that commercial building. The property is neutral for the State Historic 4 Registry. 5 This is the location as far as the structure itself if you just see in the 6 corner on, toward the east, that is where the residential building is that we 7 will not be discussing. This is the commercial property, the giant building 8 that is on there. The background on the property is the applicant had 9 actually started construction of the 300-square-foot storage building 10 without the knowledge of knowing he needed to go and get a permit or to 11 actually go to the South Mesquite Review Board. The applicant has 12 stated it is in the rear yard property and that they are now seeking 13 approval to actually keep the storage shed within that property. 14 So the proposal is that this is a 300-square-foot structure that is 15 eight feet tall. The structure is built on skids so that way it can be moved 16 in order to meet any of the setback or building separation requirements. 17 The structure will be painted to match the actual structure of the 18 commercial location now. The applicant has stated that they are requiring 19 the accessory structure in order to store files from the existing business 20 that is being ran within the commercial office. The structure is located in 21 the rear yard of the property and it is not easily seen from either street. 22 This commercial building was vacant for several years and has been 23 completely renovated and the storage structure is needed in order to 24 actually maintain that business there. Here is a site plan of that property. 25 You can see where the building is. That is actually the commercial. They 26 redid the parking lot. They have done the building, the renovations with 27 inside the building, and the structure for the storage shed is towards the 28 south portion. That's where he has located that building. 29 These are the pictures actually identifying the storage shed. If you 30 look in the top, upper left corner that is the front of the building on 31 Mesquite Street of the commercial location. 32 33 Kuhns: It's to the east_ 34 35 Gonzales: If you look on the right-hand side you can see the little building that's 36 peeking over the top is actually the top of that storage shed. Looks almost 37 like a birdhouse. The bottom location is actually the structure where it 38 does say "the rear yard." That is the structure. It will be painted to match 39 the commercial building. It is meeting all the requirements as far as its 40 setbacks from the property lines as well as from the other structures on 41 that property. And if you just see from the bottom left-hand corner, that is 42 from Las Cruces Street looking to the back so it's very, you cannot see it 43 with that tree being there or the other kind of structure. 44 These are the neighboring properties that are around it, that do 45 surround it. Some of them are still vacant. Other of them, there is a 46 residential, there is a commercial office. There is other residences within 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 the neighborhood. Staff did review this based on styles, methods, and materials of the architectural design of the structure. We do not see any visual compatibility differences between this structure or the commercial building in which it is being utilized for. So with that the staff, staff has recommended approval because we did receive three phone calls supporting the approval for the new storage building and we did receive two phone calls stating there were no issues with having that structure there so we do not have anything in disagreement. With that we do find, or we recommend approval to the South Mesquite Review Board. However, you do have final authority on these proposals and at this point you can vote "yes" to approve the new storage building as is; vote "no" to deny the new storage building; you can vote "yes" to put conditions upon this building as deemed necessary by the Review Board; or you can vote to table with more options of staff or the applicant providing more information. That concludes this one. If you guys have any questions applicant is here and can help with anything. Bush: I have a question. Williams: Okay. Bush: This is a ... Williams: State, state your name. Bush: My name is Yanick D'Hoope-Bush and (inaudible) husband and we live, we own the, the house at the corner of Las Cruces and Mesquite and so we have a, a rental there and my question is: Is there going to be a lot of trucks going in and out of there, that's, in, is there a entrance on Mesquite? Campos: I think that would be a question for the applicant. Atwell: Is there an entrance from the shed? Bush: Yeah. (Inaudible). Atwell: No. There'd be no more traffic in, than is already there. Bush: No, no big trucks coming in and out ... Atwell: No. Bush: Early in the morning (Inaudible). Atwell: No, absolutely not. No, it's ... 2 1 2 Bush: Okay. 3 4 Atwell: That, the, the storage building is being built for our, our files so I, I'm the 5 franchisee for KFC here in town and, and across the, across the southern 6 part of the state. We have to keep our storage files for our taxes for seven 7 years due to the government. 8 9 Bush: Okay. 16 11 Atwell: So that's truly why we've built that, so that we can, so we can put them in 12 there and, and have that facility for those. That's the only reason for it. 13 No additional traffic. It's, but that's, that is the reason for it. 14 15 Bush: No storage of, of nasty stuff or ... 16 17 Atwell: It is, it is true ... 18 19 Kuhns: Only if call taxes nasty. 20 21 Atwell: Yeah taxes are, taxes are nasty. That's, that's true. 22 23 MANY PEOPLE SPEAKING AT ONCE. 24 25 Campos: I have a question for staff. 26 27 Gonzales: Yes, sir. 28 29 Campos: The C-2 zone, what are the setback requirements for side and rear? 36 31 Gonzales: For the rear the C-2 zone is going to be 15. 32 33 Campos: Okay. 34 35 Gonzales: The side yards are going to be five, or it's going to be either five or zero. 36 However, for accessory structures we do not use setbacks. 37 38 Campos: Good. 39 40 Gonzales: Accessory structures meet the ten -foot separation between the 41 commercial building, three feet from property lines. 42 43 Campos: Zero or three, right? 44 45 Gonzales: It's actually ... 46 5 1 Campos: Three. 2 3 Gonzales: We actually require three feet. 4 5 Campos: Okay. 6 7 Gonzales: Just for drainage purposes so they don't actually drain into a neighboring 8 property. 9 10 Campos: One more question. Will the, but they'll be on skids so there's, there's not, 11 they're not going to be anchored onto any kind of concrete for support with 12 the skids? 13 14 Atwell: Correct. It will not be anchored. It's on skids. 15 16 Campos: It won't be anchored. 17 18 Atwell: It's on skids for in case it ever needs to be moved out of there. 19 20 Campos: That way with the weight that's going to be inside will help support it. 21 22 Atwell: Correct. Absolutely. 23 24 Campos: Okay. That sounds good. That's all I have. Thank you. 25 26 Williams: Paul. 27 28 Mach: When I looked at the Municipal Code Section 38-51 on accessory uses 29 and use of accessory structures, number four there says, "Development 30 standards such as setbacks and height for residential use and its 31 associated accessory uses and structures in an office, commercial, or 32 industrial zoning districts shall be the same as zoning district in which the 33 residential use is located." So that to me under, I understand that the 34 setbacks for accessory buildings would be the same as for the, as for the 35 main structure. 36 37 Gonzales: In this case because it is zoned C-2 however, there is residential and 38 commercial within the same property. 39 40 Mach: Okay. 41 42 Gonzales: We do only maintain that there is the ten feet separation per building code 43 as well as fire codes. This three foot on the side setback is just a 44 requirement to make sure that it doesn't drain into a neighboring property. 45 If that were the case the property owner could actually go up to the zero 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 29 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42_ 43 44 45 46 lot line so it could either be five or zero if the neighboring property had a separation as well. Mach: Okay. Gonzales: So in this case we're just classifying it as a storage shed for an accessory structure so we would classify him as just meeting the (inaudible) setback. Mach: Okay. Thank you. That's all I have. Williams: Barbara. Kuhns: I'd like to point out to the Board that the City has a metal storage shed at, one block east of this property that's much uglier. It's a metal building, it doesn't have a pitched roof. It's at the East Side Community Center. Campos: Is, is it visible compared to this one? Kuhns: Way more visible. Campos- More. Kuhns: Way more visible, much more of an eyesore. This building, I, you really have to look to know it, well, you all know you really have to look hard and also since the current tenant has been in that building the landscaping is just a real addition to the neighborhood. It used to have um a very dangerous commercial dumpster right on the corner of Mesquite and Las Cruces Avenue with rusty hooks and was quite dangerous. They, when they first moved in they had some issues with tagging and they got on it right away and since then I haven't noticed any. But they've been a, a, very much a positive addition to that, to that area of, of the city and to the neighborhood. Campos: I agree Mr. Chair. I echo Ms. Barbara's comments. I'd like to also for the record welcome you to the neighborhood. You give it a positive attribute. Atwell: Thank you. Appreciate that. Campos: Prior to that it was, used to be Chuck's Motor and that, it was, there was a lot of traffic going in there, big heavy trucks dropping off their equipment to get fixed and you know. But he was, he was one of the icons of the neighborhood back in the day, back in ... but anyways just for the record I'd like to welcome you. Thank you. That's all I have. Williams: Any other comments? 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 S. Cruz: I, 1 live close to the ... Williams: State your name. S. Cruz: My name's Steven Cruz. I live, my property's very close to the old Chuck's and yeah I'd like to, you know I just have to say the same thing that you two have also said, that it's really brought up the neighborhood. It's been cleaned up. The building, I've seen it personally. It looks very well, well- built where it's, everything that's going into that property has really helped uplift the neighborhood, leaving it a lot better, better than having a vacant building right there. So I, 1 would thank you very much for what you've done. Atwell: Thank you. Appreciate it. S. Cruz: Thank you. Done. Williams: Okay. Any other comments? Campos: No sir. Williams: With that we can close the comments. Take action. Mach: I move that we vote "yes" to approve the new storage building as you proposed and as it sits there. Williams: Do I have a second? Campos: I'll second. Williams- All those in favor? MOTION PASSES UNANIMOUSLY. Williams: Motion passes. Atwell: Thank you. Appreciate that. Williams: Thank you. Kuhns: Well we thank you. 2. Case 65092: Request for approval of the replacement of doors and windows on the street -facing facade of an existing single-family dwelling located on the northwest corner of May Avenue and San Pedro Street: a.k.a. 339 E. May Avenue; Parcel ID# 02-06230. The subject property is zoned R-4 (High 1 Density Residential and Limited Office District) and is located within the 2 Original Townsite of the South Mesquite Overlay District. Submitted by 3 Ralph Biah. 4 5 Williams: Next on the agenda is Case 65092. 6 7 Gonzales: Okay, so the second case is, the applicant is here. They are proposing 8 street -facing the side doors and windows for replacement on 339 East 9 May Avenue. This is the location of the property. It is on the corner of 10 South San Pedro as well as East May Avenue and it is zoned R-4 within 11 that district. This does consist of a vacant single-family dwelling. It is 12 located in the South Mesquite Overlay District within the original town site 13 area. Dwelling is classified as a contributing structure within the National 14 Historic Registry Survey and it was constructed around 1880, 15 Here is the subject property shown in the aerial as far as the facade 16 that we are looking at. On South San Pedro are some windows and on 17 May Street there are windows and some doors that we will be addressing. 18 The applicant has already started the construction of the project. 19 Unfortunately, they were unaware that they would have to come in to get a 20 building permit or to actually come in and get approval from the South 21 Mesquite Review Board. The existing doors and some windows were in 22 total disrepair. Some of the windows were actually removed from the 23 previous property owner, so they were actually left boarded up. The 24 applicant is now seeking approval from the South Mesquite Review Board 25 for the replacement of these doors and windows. The old doors have 26 been replaced with new wooden doors which are consistent with the style 27 of the original doors and the overall characteristics of the Historic District. 28 The new doors have been set into the original door openings. There were 29 no changes to the outside frame and the stucco will be replaced around 30 the new doors to match the existing stucco of the building. However, they 31 were stopped and, during the process of construction. The deteriorated 32 windows were also replaced within, and given new windows to match in 33 with the, the style of the neighborhood. No changes, changes to the 34 original openings except to meet the Building Code requirements and 35 stucco will be replaced around the windows to match the existing stucco. 36 There were two windows facing San Pedro Street that have already been 37 replaced with standard aluminum windows which does not meet the 38 design requirements of the South Mesquite Overlay. However, the 39 applicant has stated that they are willing to work with the South Mesquite 40 Review Board for any recommendations or conditions that we can place 41 upon this. 42 If you can see in the left picture, that was the original picture of 43 those doors and in the inset of them where that they were placed inside 44 and these are just screen doors on the outside. The existing photo to the 45 right is actually the windows that were there before they were either 46 broken into or even replaced. These are what they had them replaced 0 with. So the top corner on the left is actually the same photo from this one which was on the right-hand side. This one has been replaced with a vinyl window and the broken glass window structure. The doors are both wooden doors that are inset. They just don't have the screens on the outside of them that were currently existing. The windows that are located towards the bottom of the page are the ones that do not meet the South Mesquite Overlay requirements. Those are the aluminum windows. These are the neighboring properties that are surrounding the location. You do have different residences as well as commercial buildings that are located within that area. Of course staff does look at the architectural styles and methods of the materials that are used to make sure they do match the original structure and that they too are, or they do maintain the characteristics of the neighborhood. The structure is listed as contributing by the National Historic Survey. And staff did receive two phone calls with no issues of their proposal for the work that has already been done. To go through the Design Standards: Windows that cannot be repaired or restored shall be duplicated in size, style, and material of the original to the greatest extent possible. So they should match what is originally there as close as they can. No opening shall be widened or narrowed except those to meet with Building Code standards. In this case nothing was actually altered to meet any of those standards. Vinyl -clad aluminum windows may be used if they resemble the original windows in size. So the window that is vinyl is the actual one that is replaced correctly. The other two aluminum ones were the ones that staff did not believe matched. If existing doors are beyond repair new ones shall match the original material and should also be similar in design. Flat surface and contemporary doors with small decorative windows shall be avoided. Two pictures of the windows with complete wooden doors. There were no windows inside those doors. No door opening shall be widened or narrowed except to, as required by the Building Code standards. In this case they did not widen any doors. The frame is still the original. And staff does recommend approval based on, on the findings within your staff report. However, you do have the final authority on these proposals. Once again you can vote "yes" to approve the replacement of the doors and windows; "no," this would deny the replacement of the doors and windows; vote "yes" with conditions, this could add the conditions deemed by the South Mesquite Review Board; or to table to allow staff to find additional information or determine alternate solutions. And (inaudible). Mach: I'd like to hear from the, from the owners of the property. Okay. Biah: Pretty much the property was purchased earlier last year and we just recently started working on it late in the year, last year, that's November - December we started cleaning it out and it was all trashed in there, 10 windows boarded up and we had no idea, cause I'm not the original owner. I just manage his properties for him. He lives in Phoenix, Arizona so we had no idea we had to meet with the Board and get approval to go ahead and start doing anything. So this is the, the, controls the renovations and everything going on. Lima: I was actually doing all the work. Biah: Okay. So we just started, went ahead and started replacing the windows, the boarded -up windows and messed -up doors and cleaning it out, the property before it got red -tagged but we tried to get the power on. Lima: Well yeah, we had codes there and they said we had to clean it cause the place was to the roof with garbage. Kuhns: Wow, Lima: Literally. Human waste and everything. It took us a month to empty it out and once we emptied it out, all the doors and windows were boarded up. I mean none of them were any good. So we took out all the doors. They, well the, the owner wanted it secured so that nobody could get in there. There were people living in there and whatever else you know. You could tell there's people in, there's feces everywhere and all kinds of stuff so we took it all out. We took all the garbage out and we put the doors in first so we could secure it and have a way in, and then we started working on the windows. We didn't know that we had to ask permission to put the, to renovate it. Biah: At that time we knew it was in the Historical, well, I think the owner wasn't aware it was in a Historical District cause he's not from Las Cruces and coming from, and we started working with Adam and going over things we found out it was one of the original homes in Las Cruces and things like that so, and it is the reason why we had to come before the Board and try to get permission to go ahead and well besides everything else is up to code with the District except for those two windows, aluminum windows faces San Pedro lso we want to see if, go ahead and, and make those changes. Lima: We can do whatever you guys recommend the, as far as windows or doors, whatever you want. (Inaudible). Mach: A, a little bit of history about this house is, like it was said the house was built around 1880 and it was built by a gentleman who used to run freight, imagine between the East and Las Cruces in wagon trains. His name was Santa Rosa Rico and he built this house and in 19, now we're back to, up to 1985 when the, when the, the District wanted to be added to the 11 1 National Historic Register. And this house was a, was rated as one of the 2 most significantly, significant historic buildings in the District. In 1994 it 3 was still listed as significant and then in 2000, sometime after that the 4 ratings, the rating classifications were changed and the house was listed 5 as contributing (inaudible) to the historic integrity of the District so to me 6 this is a really important house. The, in the 1985 survey of the historic 7 houses in this area it was shown, it was listed that there were, some of the 8 windows were like two panes, over two panes and some were six, over six 9 like what you've shown there. 10 11 Lima: Well the window up here in this corner, it was one solid plate glass. 12 13 Mach: Right. 14 15 Lima: From top to bottom. It had no, it didn't open or anything. 16 17 Mach: Right, right. 18 19 Lima: Just one piece of glass. 20 21 Mach: Right. 22 23 Lima: It was shattered to many pieces and the window's still there, just the glass 24 is all broken. It was about half an inch thick. 25 26 Mach: Right. 27 28 Lima: The glass was there. 29 30 Mach: Yes, and I do remember what that looked like before you put the window 31 in. The doors, to me a, a, the doors look nice. Okay, and I, again I thank 32 you for being here. The doors look nice and they could've been like what 33 was there at the time. But to me a door can be replaced easily. If 34 somebody came in and ever bought the property and really researched it 35 and wanted to bring this back to its original, its original look, you buy, you 36 get the door, you match it up, and you put it on the hinges. But the 37 windows to me are a lot different because once the windows, it seems to 38 me that once the windows go in, they're in. The window up there on the 39 left-hand side, the bottom looks like it was built up in order to 40 accommodate the window. 41 42 Lima: It, it was. That's a two -by -six underneath. But we could remove that and 43 put up the whole window there but we'd have to special order the window. 44 It'd probably take three to six months, well however long it takes them to 45 make it, shipped. 46 12 1 Mach: Right. And the thing about these old houses are windows were, it's going 2 to be very difficult to find a standard window that's going to fit that. 3 4 Lima: We can have them made out of wood but that's a, that's (inaudible). 5 6 Mach: Yeah. 7 8 Lima: But that's not a problem. 9 10 Mach: Okay. 11 12 Lima; We can have windows made to fit there. 13 14 Mach: Okay. 15 16 Lima: You know how the expense probably isn't a problem. 17 18 Mach: Okay. 19 20 Lima: Since this is a historic house and ... 21 22 Mach: Okay. 23 24 Lima: So. 25 26 Mach; Right. And that's, I mean the, you might not have known about the 27 historic-ness ... 28 29 Lima: Right. I, 1 ... 30 31 Mach: Of this area and the owners obviously didn't because they live in Phoenix 32 but the City has deemed that this is a jewel, the Mesquite Historic jewel, 33 District is a jewel in the City and the houses are worthy of being 34 preserved. And this one to me especially is one of the important buildings 35 that needs to be preserved as much as it can. I mean times are different, 36 the materials we have today are different but I would really like to see the, 37 the windows to be more out of materials that would've been at the time 38 you know. 39 40 Lima: Can I ask a question? Should I state my name? 41 42 Mach: Please do. 43 44 Lima: And I said I was doing the work. So do you recommend that we put all 45 wood windows and I, that, that, we could take those out and put them in. 46 That's not a problem. And would, wouldn't even touch the surface of the 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 property. On the inside where the windows go, all that's going to be stuccoed so it all blends in and I would imagine that that was the way it was originally, that it was all stuccoed and when the doors and windows were in set and all you saw was the stucco and not much of the window. Mach: Right. And like, as far as the doors go that's probably the way that they were, I mean you put them in the original doorjamb. The window, that you're, on the left-hand side, this is a territorial building and a, from what I've seen, I'm not an expert in architecture but territorial buildings a lot of times had wooden frame around the top so that, I could imagine that maybe that's the way the window was originally as far out. Because one of the things that the National Parks Service recommends is that on an old house you don't start moving the windows around, which I know that's how it was when you, when the owner bought it. On the bottom windows, I mean it's already been stated that those are not sufficient but that window on the right on the bottom, that opening it, to me it looks like it's more of a door than it is a window. Lima: And it might've been a door at one time because that was boarded up on the bottom, because again it, the whole door was, the whole thing was boarded up. Mach. Okay. Lima: And then when we took off the board it was just like that at the top and it was completely deteriorated. Mach: Okay. Lima: And it had two panels underneath which were also deteriorated and we just cut them back up just like that. Mach: Right. Lima: And then I don't know how much, how many times this place has been renovated but I, I'm assuming that the, the changes come from that time. I'm not quite sure. Mach: It may have been. I know that, I live up the street. I just live a half a block from this house and so I do know that there was somebody living there in the last couple years. Lima: There's a, there was a transient living there. We had to actually call the police to get him out of there. It was a lady and ... Mach: Yeah, there was a gentleman and he had two, two hound dogs. 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Lima: Okay. Mach: And he was there since ever, my house is three years old so I have a new house but when I moved there that gentleman was living there and I don't know if he was the owner of the house or rented it. He was there on a permanent basis. I don't, I, if that was a door it may be easier to put a door back in there than it was to, to try and ... Lima: Probably will be. Mach: Do something with a window because I really, I mean it looks like there was a door. That whole opening there looks like a door so it may be less expensive and easier to replace it with a door. Lima: It, it probably would be easier. Mach: I was told that somebody came, somebody that was working on that property came by a couple of days ago and said that behind that window on the right with the wood on the bottom, is that one of the bedrooms, is Lima: Yes. Mach: That's what I was told. Lima: It's got four doors. Well it's, no it's got three doors currently and that would've been the fourth door. It's got two here in this side, there's one around the back. Mach: In the back. Lima: Yeah, and then this one here and this is facing Main. Mach: This is San Pedro, yeah. Lima: San Pedro, San Pedro. Mach: Right, I would like to ask you if you could look into that and if it was a door it may be easier to replace it as a door. Plus, on top of it if that's a bedroom, the City really wants to be able to have an emergency exit out of a bedroom and you know a door may help facilitate that so I would ask that maybe you look into that also. 15 1 Lima: And, well I was also told that this was a duplex at one time so there's two 2 apartments cause it had two bathrooms, it had two kitchens, and two sets 3 of plumbing, you know. 4 5 Mach: Okay. 6 7 Lima: So and I think where, in the middle of the property there was a wall there 8 which was, and so, and we didn't touch it but (inaudible) you know but it 9 was not a, a structural, like two-by-four wood wall that somebody put in 10 and later they removed again. So the original adobe and everything on 11 the inside is still there. 12 13 Mach: Okay. 14 15 Lima: So but I was, that's, that's, I was wondering why they have so many doors 16 you know with a ... 17 18 Mach: House ... 19 20 Lima: I wouldn't imagine it that the original property had so many doors. And 1 21 mean they didn't, they, that door there, the one on this side is, is a, is a 22 door there, again around the corner there's another door and then on this 23 side they go, you could go through here and then go that way and around 24 out this door and go this way and go out this door. So the doors are pretty 25 close together. 26 27 Mach: Right. 28 29 Lima: When I say, put door there, a door there, and a door here, then you have 30 a door back here so in each corner of the house there's a door and then 31 the windows and, I'm sorry. 32 33 Kuhns: There could, there could be a door in a bedroom because it was for the 34 mother-in-law or a member of the family that was an adult that wanted its 35 own entrance. 36 37 Lima: Right, so the entrance so they can get in and out. 38 39 Kuhns: Does the owner have, the owner's intent is to restore the house to the 40 original floor plan? 41 42 Lima: I, I'm not sure about the original floor, I, we really don't know the original, 43 real floor. 44 45 Kuhns: Right. But you're not going to have the two kitchens, are you? 46 16 Lima: No, no. We, the kitchen we expanded it cause everything's back to back. Without tearing any walls out, we just, we removed all the old two-by-fours there, the two-by-four walls cause those are, those are present recent, we can tell that they were fairly new. We took all that out and all that's in there now is just the adobe walls. Kuhns: All right. Lima: You know cause we don't want to mess with those because they're structural and (inaudible) roof or whatever, but the other walls were not so still two bedrooms, one bath, and one kitchen. Took all the plumbing, all the plumbing had to be removed cause I found the plumbing's no good, the gas lines are no good, all the electrical's no good, and that's part of the problem where having now is that they won't approve the electric until we approved from you guys first. Kuhns: Okay. Campos: Quick question. Now that the property owner discovered this is a historical house I wonder what kind of budget he's, he's working under. Is he willing to, I'll just say this, up the ante and bring it up into some kind of a historical significance for his investment? Was he going to sell the property or is he going to rent it out? Biah: I'm not too sure about that, what, what he was going to originally do with it. Campos: Right. Biah: We just, we did, we were just told to go in and try to fix it up and get it back to ... Campos: Okay. Biah: Yeah. Campos: So, so with that question to the Board, the type of window and doors, do we have any criteria that specifies a type of door from that vintage era that big, that a manufacturer might be able to make to where the carpenter can work around the frame of the window to make it fit for its craftsmanship? Are we, or am I going over and beyond? Kuhns: Well I think we already agreed that the doors are fine. Campos Okay. Kuhns: Didn't we? They, they're wooden doors. 17 1 2 Mach: Yeah. I don't have ... 3 4 Kuhns: I don't have ... 5 6 Mach: To me the doors are okay. 7 8 Kuhns: Yeah. 9 10 Williams: I, I'm, my, and I, 1 don't know if we're getting along this line or not but to 11 sort of move things along a little bit, the doors we're okay with. We don't 12 have an issue with the doors. You know they, they, they, I, you know 13 they, it was a good job at least, what's already there. If the owner is willing 14 to go to wood windows to make those fit I agree with Paul that we need to 15 try and keep the sizes original because when you start closing up that 16 area of the window you're changing the look of that building so I, I, you're 17 going to have to re -stucco over your, when the window's getting smaller 18 and things like that. If the owner's willing to, to custom build windows and 19 especially if the owner's willing to build custom-built wood windows cause 20 wood windows would've been original to the original house but you know 21 the, the, I'm all for that. 22 23 Biah: Okay. 24 25 Williams: And then, and that's what I would recommend ... 26 27 Biah: Yeah. 28 29 Williams: Being done. I agree also with Paul on the one. If the, if it was a door at 30 one time... 31 32 Biah: Put it back. 33 34 Williams: It may, it may cost you less to make it a door again. You know the, in the, 35 in that case if it did become a window I, 1 think you could, I, 1 would be 36 okay with allowing it as long as it matched the other windows. But if it was 37 a door it'd be nice to see it go back to that. I'm, I'm not, I'm, I don't know if 38 we're overstepping, you might be able to tell me by telling him to go back 39 to a certain style or a period of time and restore the whole building back to 40 that look. You know I don't know that we've got the authority to do that 41 and I don't, you know as long as you bring it up again and same thing, 42 originally there would've been wood if the territorial style, you can tell by 43 the brick and there would've been wood throughout, gable pieces around 44 the window and things like that. I'm not asking you to do that again but, 45 but that would've been you know what the style was and if you go back 46 and research the style you'll see it and everything like that. At this point I m 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 don't think you're, the owner is asking, or they're, they're probably not wanting to bring it up to a specific date and bring it back, to restore it to that level cause then it's going to be getting very costly and things like that so, and I would be, I don't, I would not favor asking them to do that in specific. Lima: Okay. Kuhns: This is ... Williams: Or telling them to do that so. Lima: Yeah. We have, we didn't touch any of the structure outside, how it was painted, so basically if it's there it's been there (inaudible). Biah: We just want to be able to get our approval for what the Board recommends us to do the property and we'll get it done. Kuhns: The, the ... Lima: I mean I, 1 don't know what it would take to make it to historic to whatever era or whatever we, do we have to take stucco out and, and something, something else or ... Williams: It was probably stucco originally but, or at some point so ... Kuhns: I want to tell you that there's a piece of property on the corner of um, it's San Pedro and um it's the um northwest corner of Klein Park. What street is, La Nueva Casita and Mesquite and ... Williams: Organ. Mach: Organ. Kuhns: Organ. So it's on the corner of San Pedro and Organ and they have that, that, those territorial wood windows, the, what Robert was describing, if you want to see it. Lima: Okay. I was ... Kuhns: We're not saying that you have to do it but if you want to see it, it's just a block or three blocks from where your house is. Lima: Okay. Question I got about that is that if we do something like that we'd have to change the structure of the windows cause that, the inside part, W 1 when we opened up the walls and went to the, to where the adobe is it's 2 square. The frames are square inside. So it never had any of those. 3 4 Williams: Well now this one .. . 5 6 Kuhns: Well then, then it didn't. 7 8 Williams: Here looks like it did. 9 10 Kuhns: Oh. 11 12 Williams: I mean there, there's some pieces up there where it kind of looks like it 13 did, the white piece. 14 15 Lima: Yeah. 16 17 Williams: The other ones, the bottom ones, did, did not look ... 18 19 Lima: Okay. 20 21 Williams: The bottom ones don't, were not territorial. 22 23 Kuhns: Territorial. 24 25 Williams: Yeah. So, so that, that where the wood is flush with the, the surface, the, 26 the pieces that I'm talking about would've just been wood pieces placed on 27 the wall, on the wall, on the exterior of the wall. They would've just been, 28 they would've just been ... 29 30 Lima: I can look into that and see what it ... 31 32 Williams: They would've just been decorative items. 33 34 Kuhns: Right. 35 36 Williams: So. 37 38 Lima: And also I think that this place was also had an addition to it. They did, 1 39 think the original house is one section and then it was added. 40 41 Williams: Very likely. 42 43 Lima: So that's too different. 44 45 Mach: Yeah, yeah, I'm not asking the owners to restore the building the way that 46 it is either, I mean that's not, that, that, if somebody buys it and wants to 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 do that, they know what kind of expense they're going to get and they'll have, they know that they have to do research. And so what, what I'm asking is that nothing is changed so that in case somebody does come back, because some people are fixing some of these old houses up and they have the goal to make them as much as possible look as they originally did, so that nothing is done to this house that would preclude them from doing that without having to go through some huge expense to undo what was, was done. There's also a window on the north side that isn't shown in any of these pictures and I think you folks ... Lima: (inaudible). Mach: Replaced with a Jel win, a, a Jel win, window ... Lima: (inaudible). Mach: And if the owner is willing to do that it's not that visible from the street but it can be seen, and if that could be included in one of the windows if the, if you're having custom windows made. If you'd be willing to do that too, I would really appreciate it. Gonzales; As stated though the applicant is allowed to do a vinyl window per the Code of South Mesquite Overlay. A wooden window is not a minimum requirement. I understand that you are trying to meet those codes. However due to the expenses of that applicant vinyl is still an allowed window that can be placed there if it can at least meet the requirements. Williams: Yeah the, and, and, and, and what we're saying, that's not what we're saying. We understand the vinyl would be fine. The problem is the vinyl won't meet, the, they, they'll have to have custom-made vinyl to fit the ... Gonzales: Oh yeah. Williams: Window size. They won't, they're not standard -size windows. The custom wood is probably less expensive to make than a custom vinyl. Gonzales: Okay, Williams: So it's like, so that's, if they go to the, if they go to the wood it's, you know. They can get the, they can get vinyl and they can go with vinyl but it's going to be a custom-made vinyl so. Mach: Could you back up a few slides that you had on there, what the requirements would be? Gonzales: Here's your Design Standards. 21 1 2 Mach- Windows that cannot be repaired or restored shall be duplicated in size, 3 style, and material of the original to the greatest extent possible. So if 4 they are being custom-made, I would really hope that the owner would, 5 would try to do a wood window. I know they take more maintenance too, I 6 mean personally my house is three years old and I have vinyl woods, vinyl 7 windows. And I did not want to put in wood because I did not want the 8 maintenance of it. But my house is three years old and it's a product of its 9 time and it's reflecting of the current building standards. But this house 10 was you know built in 1880. And again some houses have gone through, 11 since all of this has, since it become a historic district people have made 12 changes to the houses and before this there was a Board like this here 13 which came into effect in 2005 1 think, maybe ten years ago. People 14 would do whatever and there was, there was no incentive to try and make 15 them, the house that's right next to this house on San Pedro is an example 16 of an old house that they just put any old windows and they look nice but 17 they're a vinyl window and there was no consideration made to trying to 18 keep them that way. And that may have been done before 2005, a lot of 19 the houses because until 2005 people could do basically whatever. So 20 yeah I, 1 strongly ask that the owners do that because this is such a, it, it, it 21 really is a significant house. 22 23 Kuhns: It is. 24 25 Lima: Well, I mean it's just as easy to put wood windows ... 26 27 Mach: Okay. Okay. 28 29 Lima- As it is the vinyl windows. It's not that like more expensive ... 30 31 Mach: Okay. 32 33 Lima: So actually it's a ... 34 35 Kuhns: Right. 36 37 Lima: Probably cheaper said so. 38 39 Mach: Okay. 40 41 Lima: Then we're going to do that, the windows. 42 4.3 Mach: Yeah. Okay. 44 45 Lima We're going to, probably. 46 22 1 Mach: Thank you. And ... 2 3 Williams: Any other discussion? 4 5 Campos: Nothing further. 6 7 Mach: Yeah, and I just wanted, I just want to say thank you for being here and 8 thank you for ... 9 10 Kuhns: Yeah. 11 12 Mach: Understanding. 13 14 Campos: Yes, sir. 15 16 Mach: I, the, there are the, since all this has come into play have you, has the 17 City given you a, a set of the new, of the codes that apply to here? 18 19 Lima: Oh, yeah. We had, at first we had a problem with the garbage. There 20 was a lot of trash and everything and they ... 21 22 Mach: Right. 23 24 Lima: Came give tickets for the grass and all that. And then the electric, we're 25 having a problem with that because it was 110 only and now we're trying 26 to upgrade it to 220 cause everything in it's going to be electric. It's not 27 going to be, you know cause the wood -burning stove that I would imagine 28 was the original kind of thing, I just cleaned it up and there's no other form 29 of heat in, in the property so. 30 31 Mach: Yeah. 32 33 Lima: So when there's, we're trying to do electric and then the wood -burning 34 stove. 35 36 Mach: Okay. And this Board, it does, does not really have any control over 37 what's done on the inside of a house. And so we're more, most 38 concerned with the exterior portion of the house. So thank you. I, 1 39 appreciate that. 40 41 Campos: Nothing further Mr. Chair. 42 43 Williams: So someone want to make a motion? 44 45 Mach: And I would recommend, I recommend that we, I make a motion that we 46 approve, take option number three which is vote "yes" with conditions 23 1 because we have not seen any pictures of what this, what you propose 2 that this will look like. I have a hard time just saying, "Yes, go ahead," with 3 your word that it would be done like that but my condition would be that, 4 that if ... 5 6 Kuhns: That you ... 7 8 Mach: Whatever changes that you make and whatever windows you put in there, 9 and the doors, the doors are okay, that we, they do conform to our 10 requirement. 11 12 Kuhns: But we, I think we need to tighten that up. So Paul are you saying that 13 you're making a motion to vote "yes" with the condition that the windows 14 be replaced by wood frame windows? Is that what you wanted to say 15 Paul? 16 17 Mach: I would, I will have said that, yes. 18 19 Kuhns: I second it. 20 21 Williams: All those in favor? 22 23 MOTION PASSES UNANIMOUSLY. 24 25 Williams: Okay. So you guys have it. 26 27 Biah: Wood frame windows that are ... 28 29 Kuhns: Yeah. 30 31 Lima: They're just replacing the ones in the front, we're replacing all there is on. 32 33 Kuhns: Yeah. 34 35 Lima: To the (inaudible). 36 37 Kuhns: I would. 38 39 Mach: Thank you, yeah. 40 41 Kuhns: Really add to the aesthetics. 42 43 Lima: Thank you guys. 44 45 Williams: Thank you. 46 ME 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Kuhns: Thank you. I, we appreciate your work. Lima: If I would've known that was historic we would've done it a whole lot different, yes sir. (inaudible). Williams: Thank you. Biah: Yes sir. Kuhns: Okay. Hang in there. Lima: Well do you guys want pictures after or ... Williams: We all live in the area so. Kuhns: We'll keep a close eye on you. Williams: Thank you. MANY PEOPLE SPEAKING AT ONCE. Campos: Take care. IV. DISCUSSION OF OTHER ITEMS Williams: All right. So any other discussion? Campos: I have a quick question. There's a recycling place in El Paso called the McKinley Recycling, Breaking Company. Kuhns: Yeah, Campos: They, they take down old, old, old houses and they resell whatever's available to the public. Can, with, with the, within a historical district can somebody go buy an old window from the '30s and replace it with one of the historical houses that are being remodeled? Is that, is that something that, has anybody looked at? What I was trying to do is if with this house if there's like a, a manufacturer that's, does vintage type of windows for a certain era like '30s, '40s, teens, etc., etc. If, if there is a manufacturer for that can we use that in lieu of just a regular window from Lowe's or some Home Depot? Kuhns: I would hope so but I don't know. 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 Williams: Yeah I would, I would agree. I would hope that we would be able to and if we have a, that may be something that he, you know I came up one, once before early on. If there was a resource ... Campos: Right. Williams: You know that people could get where they could find that, lot of people don't know where there's a place and go to Lowe's or ... Campos: Right. Williams: Home Depot first and grab the first thing they see but ... Campos: Yeah. Williams: You know if there's someplace where they can get you know Re -Store or someplace like that a lot of times they might find old windows too so. Campos: Yeah. Williams: So but. R. Cruz: I can contribute a little bit to that. My name's Robert Cruz and I've done some restorations over on the Alameda side where we went back with wood windows. The best that we have found here is not the big box stores but Foxworth-Galbraith can, they have a line where they can order custom-made win, wood windows or to look vinyl that looks like wood. Williams: Yep. R. Cruz: You know it has the grain in it and ... Campos: Yes sir. R. Cruz: Very expensive though, very expensive. Especially if you're doing the double pane -double sash to get back to the original period. Campos- Mr. Chair that's the only question I had. Williams: Okay. Mach: Yeah, when I was researching all of this cause I spent a lot of time on this, this case, more than all the other ones we've had put together just because of the house that it is and there was a site that Eric Liefeld who's involved with the Preservation Society around Mesilla Valley sent, gave me and I'll be happy to forward to you but it's a National Park Service 26 I Guidelines for Restorations and Renovations of Old Houses. And it was, it 2 was a great site for windows, for, they had tons of information of what to 3 do when a window was still there, can that one still be fixed up, if it's, if 4 there was no historical window left they give suggestions on what you 5 might do so it was, it's a great site. 6 7 Campos: Yeah, if you could send that that'd be nice. 8 9 V. STAFF ANNOUNCEMENTS 10 11 Williams: Okay. Any staff announcements? 12 13 Gonzales: You guys did actually have a question about if we were handing out 14 information. As people are coming in and asking questions about South 15 Mesquite, course two tonight, actually gentlemen I had created, I went 16 ahead and scanned it in as a .pdf so I am sending it to people so that way 17 they can be more familiar as people are asking questions. We're also, on 18 the website we're trying to create the info area which also maps out South 19 Mesquite within it since it is now being taken out of it but it is going to be 26 an interactive map so it will help them to understand that maybe they do 21 have a property within South Mesquite and it says to you know refer more 22 questions to Planning Staff or to the South Mesquite Review Board to get 23 more information. So we are working to try and get more information out 24 there so that way we don't keep coming with permits already done. And 25 that's it for us. 26 27 Belyan: My name's Frank Belyan. I live in the neighborhood. When the City was 28 first notified about the building on Mesquite and Las Cruces, the shed that 29 was going up, it was just a, in wood frame again. There was no roof on it, 30 there was no siding and the City was notified that this building was going 31 up. Nothing was done and now the building's almost done and I totally 32 believe that people should be able to do what they want to do on their own 33 property but I really have the feeling that if I want to do something to my 34 property I would just do it. Not get a permit, not worry about the historic 35 aspect of the neighborhood, I would just do it and then if I, something 36 happens then I would come and you know say, "Well maybe I shouldn't 37 have done that but we'll just approve it." 38 39 Kuhns: Based on our last three or four meetings that would be a very good 46 strategy, wouldn't it? 41 42 Belyan: That's, that's what it appears to me but what bothers me is that the City 43 knew about this and the construction still went on to the building to, now 44 it's almost complete and now they're getting approved for it. People 45 should not be penalized for not knowing the rules but maybe they should 46 be doing things, you know. I mean I guess if I'm speeding down the road 27 1 and I get a ticket but I didn't know the speed limit was 35 and I was going 2 50, and I'm still guilty you know and I'm still going to have to pay my fine 3 and so if I can do these things, not get the code but then it's useless. 1 4 think maybe we should just maybe get rid of Codes because the codes 5 are not being followed. 6 7 Williams: But this is, and I agree. I, I, I'm getting tired, twice tonight we heard that 8 same, it, and last week, last month we heard the same thing. The 9 applicant did not know that this was on the historic thing, you know it's like 10 I'm getting tired of hearing that as an opening statement and the, you 11 know the applicant did not know and it's like, and ... 12 13 Kuhns: But I would, I would like to emphasize that it's not just about building 14 codes. It's about the Codes Department. I believe they don't, the City 15 does not have a vested interest in the South Mesquite Historic District. 16 There's a, a, an overhanging roof across the street from me, it's at that 17 barber shop. It's so dangerous. Half of it fell down in a windstorm a year 18 ago. I've called Codes on it many times and I think they, they discount 19 me. And that's why I had the Code Officer come, you know to ... 20 21 Williams: Yeah. 22 23 Kuhns: But I'm very frustrated by it. 24 25 Bush: And of, I don't know, my experience, we moved here from out of town 26 totally and I think it's really, really difficult to, to move here and then you 27 want to do something good for the neighborhood and there are so many 28 restrictions and I don't know, drive around and, and look at the street, 1 29 mean, I mean some people do whatever and, and then I mean, I don't 30 know. I don't know. I think, I don't know. 31 32 Kuhns: Well I'm glad you said that. 33 34 Mach: Just tonight though, I mean the first building I agree with what Frank said. 35 That the building just went up, work continued. Did they get fined for that 36 or was there extra cost involved because they did that, put the building up 37 and it turned out that it was too big and had to come to us? 38 39 Gonzales: Any time a applicant comes in and the permit was not pulled prior they are 40 double -feed. 41 42 Mach: Okay. 43 44 Gonzales: Codes contacts us usually the minute that they actually cite the location, 45 they let us know the address, they recommend they come in to get the 46 permit, otherwise that's when they actually give them the ticket or the m 1 citation in which they have to go to court if they do not come in compliance 2 to at least get the building permit. 3 4 Mach: Okay- 5 6 Gonzales: In this case this evening, that's why we do leave it to say that you are the 7 reviewing board of it, it can be approved or denied by the Board. We 8 present them as being, they're already constructed due to they don't know 9 and that's basically the statements they receive and give to us. 10 Unfortunately, we can't go off and say ... 11 12 Williams: Yeah. 13 14 Gonzales: You know, I can't, we would love to provide all of them. We know that 15 there's codes, we give people phone numbers, we would love to say that 16 they were utilizing them. 17 18 Mach: Thank ... 19 20 Gonzales: When you pay your utility bill come by and see us, we're right there. Ask 21 questions. You never really know. 22 23 Mach: On case number two this was an example of, the, the owner had gone and 24 done work and made changes and bought windows and they didn't meet 25 our requirements and this is a case where the owner actually does have to 26 make the change because what they were, what they did and wanted to 27 come here for approval and just say, and feel like they do the work and 28 we'll just come and beg forgiveness. It did not work in this case and they 29 have to go to more expense to bring their building up to the requirements 30 of this Board. So sometimes it is, sometimes we do make changes and 31 sometimes we don't. 32 33 Williams: Okay. Anything else? 34 35 Campos: Nothing further. 36 37 VI. ADJOURNMENT (6:57 p.m.) 38 39 Williams: Adjourn, adjourn the meeting. 40 41 42 44 1�._�✓ 45 Chairperson 29