Loading...
12/04/1997 - s QMoA EQ0 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING City of Las Cruces,New Mexico December 4, 1997 Members Present: Stephanie Medoff, Gene Kennon, Chuck McLean, Jim Boykin, Bill Madden, Charles Trego Members Absent: Frank Dailey Others Present: Ted A. Morris, Jr., Airport/Industrial Park Manager; Councillor Henry Gustafson; David Church, Rio Grande Soaring Association; Marty Ditmore, hangar owner; Ed Lindsay, West Mesa Flying Association; Hal Kading, Southwest Aviation; Fritz Wagner, citizen; Vernon Wilson, pilot; Susan Pfeiffer, Recording Secretary. Chairwoman, Stephanie Medoff, called the meeting to order at 12:00 noon in the Airport Conference Room and a quorum was noted. MINUTES: The Board asked that several minor corrections be made to the minutes. Mr. Boykin, seconded by Mr. Kennon made a motion, to approve the minutes, as corrected, of the November 4, 1997 board meeting. All were in favor, motion carried. STEERING COMMITTEE REPORT: Dave Church reported on the Steering Committee's progress. He stated that they were still looking for the main Chairman, but that they already have commitments from at least twenty people who would like to serve on the committee or help with the event. Mr. Church said that they would like to move the centerline back from the center of the runway to the safety zone, in order to enlarge the crowd area, and the ramp space that can be used for static displays. He said that they had focused on October 18, 1998 as the date for the airshow, but they were still looking for a new name to call the event. Las Cruces Air Fair, Mesilla Valley Air Fair, and Las Cruces Aviation Awareness Day, were all suggested. Mr. Morris said that the State, who advertises airshows throughout the state in their publications, had already asked for the date of the airshow, and he had given them the October 18th date. Mr. Morris stated that he had met this week with the FAA/FSDO representative who had supervised the waiver for the airshow last year, and he confirmed that it was okay to move the centerline to the north boundary of the safety zone. He also confirmed that it was okay to have other flying activities going on during the waivered period, and that we could also have a discontinuous waiver period. Mr. Kennon asked if the new Mesa Airlines 1:00 PM flight that will start in January would cause any problems? Mr. Morris said he didn't feel that any of the Mesa flights would cause a problem, but that we would need to stop activities so that they could operate, and that there is no requirement that they taxi up to the gate. He stated that the committee might want to contact Mesa who has a training program in AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER P.O.Box 20000 LAS CRUCES,NEW MEXICO 88004-9002 Phone 505/541-2000 LAS CRUCES AI1QT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Deer 4, 1997 Page 2 of 31 Farmington, and might be willing to show their training aircraft and have a couple of pilots explain Mesa's program. Mrs. Medoff reported on her visit yesterday with the City Manager. She reviewed the report she had given to him that included her apologies, and reassurances to him on the success of next year's airshow. The timeline that was discussed for presenting the Steering Committee's package, and their Resolution to the City Council was: 1. - At the December 4`h Airport Advisory Board meeting, instruct the Steering Committee to put together a package for the City Council containing the concept of the event, probable budget, definite committee member names and assignments. 2. — At the January 8d' Airport Advisory Board meeting complete any desired modifications to the Steering Committee's package and complete the final Resolution to present to City Council. 3. — Present Resolution at the February 2„d City Council meeting for approval. Councillor Gustafson said that the concepts for the airshow could be discussed at a City Council Work Session before they presented their Resolution. UNFINISHED BUSINESS: Infrastructure Development: Mr. Morris reviewed the Plat showing the proposed subdivision plan for the east end of the airport. He said that the Board's approval of this plan would allow him to submit it to the FAA, so that they could revise the Airport's Layout Plan. Mr. Morris said that it would also allow him to construct the new subdivision taxiway with this year's budgeted funds. Mr. Madden said that he would speak with Mr. Wiley to see if he had any objections to the proposed development. Mr. Morris stated that WAM, Inc. had the option of paving an additional ten feet, and that would give them more than enough taxiway for anything that could fit into their hangar. Mr. Morris stated "if we adopted this as the subdivision plan we could change it just as easily as we are changing it now." After further discussion of the plans, Mr. Boykin moved, and Mr. Trego seconded, to approve the taxiway and subdivision plan as presented. Five members voted"aye,"with Mr. Madden abstaining, motion carried. Proposed Industrial Park Development: Mr. Morris informed the board about the 20 acre parcel,just southeast of the fuel farm, that Mr. Pete Conrad had given the City $10,000 earnest money to build a rocketship factory on. Mr. Morris said that the Mesilla Valley Economic Development Alliance, Joe Dearing, and the City Manager were working on this project, and at this time he did not know what their plans were for the airport. There was a discussion on the possible future infrastructure requirements that might be needed for such a factory. Mrs. Medoff said that her only concern as far as the airport was that they didn't go into this particular parcel with any preconceived notions of promises that were not made, or promises that could not be made because the FAA wouldn't allow them. She said that she just wanted to make sure that they know exactly what can and can not be done. Natural Gas Extension: Nine hangar owners have signed up and paid for the natural gas line extensions to their hangars. Mr. Morris said that the two additional payments that were required would be paid out of the Airport budget. Construction is scheduled to start within a couple of weeks. Water Main: Mr. Morris showed on the map where the 8-inch water main would be extended to, and where the fire hydrant would be placed so that Mr. Mimoso could get his building permit to construct his hangar. Q� LAS CRUCES ALIT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4,1997 Page 3 of 31 Power Lines: Mr. Morris said that the sleeves were being put in for the underground power lines. He showed where the City would place the poles to get power to the west end of the Airport, and said that Mr. Kading would then be able to get power to his hangars. Airport Manager's Report: Mr. Morris reviewed his Airport Manager's Report (copy attached) on current projects and issues. He stated that the new electrical gates to be installed under the Taxiway C Project will have a keypad instead of gate cards. Mr. Morris plans on informing airport users about the new gates in the next Newsletter to be mailed out around Christmas time. Mr. Morris discussed Mesa Airlines plans to add an additional flight daily at 1:00 PM beginning January 7`f'. He said that he had spoken with Mr. Harrison, Vice President of Marketing and Plans, about the potential of adding on jet flights from Fort Worth. Mr. Morris suggested a Midland, Las Cruces, Phoenix, Las Cruces, Midland, Fort Worth route since they are buying 30 regional jets. Mr. Harrison said "no, that they had looked at the numbers, and there was no money in it." Mr. Morris said that Mesa advertises strictly to the business community at will travel on Mesa every day, and that was their market and the way that they structure their routes. Airport Ordinance: Ted Morris: The last thing I have Madame Chairman is Jim Boykin: Well,it says here air carrier aircraft means an the review of the proposed aviation ordinance so we have aircraft with a seating capacity of more than 30 passengers is it fresh in everybody's mind. The current Chapter 8,in the being operated. And then movement area says all these other City Ordinance Municipal Code,says it was written back things about movement area,and so I just thought you were when the Airport was in the county,and it says that the restricting yourself on that one. If you don't want to change Fire Code and Life Saving Codes apply here. This,if you that,okay. will remember for the last year and a half or so,we have been thinking in terms of a set of policies governing the Stephanie Medoff: What was your answer about a 19 seater? Airport. Based on discussions with Fermin Rubio,the new City Attorney,and also Pete Connelly,the old City Ted Morris: An air carrier as far as FAR Part 139 is Attorney,they believe that it would probably be more concerned is somebody who has more than 30 seats on the appropriate to have an ordinance that would cover those airplane. The movement area is that area that is approved by things that you really want to give somebody a speeding the FAA for those aircraft to operate in. For example,on this ticket for. Anyway,we passed these out last time,and airport,Runway 12-30,Taxiway C,B,and Alpha from here to unless there is a burning desire for me to go through it item there,this area right here,is the air carrier movement area. by item,I was just going to ask if you had any... The FAA has not approved Runway 4-22 or Runway 8-26 for use by aircraft carrying more than 30 passengers. It is up to Stephanie Medoff: Just definitions? the individual company whether they want to use an uncertified area. But,our certified area is only that one Ted Morris: No,the whole thing. runway and taxiway system. Jim Boykin: I have some questions,being as I'm a nit- Jim Boykin: You're just trying to cover everything,I guess. picker,Ted,as you ought to know by now. On this Air Carrier Movement Area here, Susan made me a copy of Ted Morris: The reason this definition is there is it is the same Part 139 so that I could do my homework,and I don't see as in the book,I think. That way there is no why you want to add while operating aircraft having a misunderstanding,I would hope,about what the air carrier seating capacity of more than 30 passengers. Why don't movement area is. you just stop it at FARs,because Mesa has less than 30? Stephanie Medoff: Oh,I see. It says by a person who holds Ted Morris: Only because the FAR definition of air or is required to hold an air carrier operating certificate. It is carrier movement area—an air carrier to the FAA about their certificate. They have to have a certificate that doesn't... Mesa isn't even though they operate under Part says 30 or more people. So you are saying,Mesa or if 121,they are not an air carrier when they operate Beech someone has a 19 seater,they have this particular certificate so 1900 Ds. it doesn't really matter the number? LAS CRUCES ALIT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 4 of 31 Jim Boykin: It's a small point. I don't want to argue wall. The specifications are,I'm sure you have a copy of about it. It says here,air carrier aircraft means an aircraft them there,are our local supplement to FAR Part 139. with a seating capacity of more than 30 passengers which is being operated by an air carrier. Movement Area means Jim Boykin: Well,that is just a question. I don't have any runways,taxiways,and other areas of the Airport which other questions on the first page. Over on the second page I'm are used for taxiing,hover taxiing,air taxiing,takeoff, still trying to find out where you got this Through-the-Fence landing aircraft,exclusive loading ramps and aircraft Operator from. parking areas. And,the reason I asked the question is because I thought perhaps you were limiting yourself to Ted Morris: That's what we have made up,how to define something over 30 passengers. different classes of commercial businesses. Ted Morris: What this is,is later on in the text when we Jim Boykin: You have to have some definitions,I understand refer to the Air Carrier Movement Area,that's that area of that. But I was wondering if you had quoted that from some the Airport that is certified under FAR Part 139 for air place else,or if it was local generation,or what? Because I carriers to operate on. Okay? Mesa,or anybody,can never have been able to find it anywhere else. operate on any part of the Airport. But,the FAA only certifies that one area for people carrying more than 30 Ted Morris: No. passengers. Jim Boykin: Also, it seems to me,by this definition that Jim Boykin: Okay,small point. somebody like First National Bank or something would be a through-the-fence operator here. Gene Kennon: On a regular basis? Ted Morris: It depends on if they are offering commercial Ted Morris: Ever. goods or services to customers on the Airport. Gene Kennon: Are we talking about an MD-80 who Jim Boykin: Some times they fly 135 Charters. brings in a football team? Bill Madden: But,they did sell their airplane. Ted Morris: They can land on Runway 4-22,but it is their choice. We don't have to maintain 4-22 to the FAR Part Jim Boykin: Oh,they did? 139 standards. The only thing that is keeping us from having the whole Airport done that way,is we need Ted Morris: If they have a 135 Certificate,and they operate a another$300,000 worth of taxiway signs,and there is just charter,they are conducting a business on the Airport,and no money for it. they are through-the-fence. Jim Boykin: Okay,the next one I have here is under Jim Boykin: Okay,but that doesn't include anything except Aircraft. I wondered if that included ultralights? That is airport operations? the next one down. Ted Morris: Right. Ted Morris: Any device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air and subject to regulation by the FAA. Jim Boykin: Okay,now down to UNICOM. Ultrlights are subject to regulation by the FAA. Stephanie Medoff. Wait a minute. Let me get something Jim Boykin: I know you don't have to have a license to fly straight. A bank owns an airplane,they are going to—are you one. talking about they have a hangar here? Ted Morris: But,they are subject to regulation by the Jim Boykin: Well,that is not the question. The question is, FAA. do they do something here that they make money on,like do they take people up and take them to Santa Fe like they use to? Jim Boykin: Okay,the next one down here is Airport And,to do that,they have to have an FAR 135 operational Certification Specifications. To me that is almost the same certificate,and that means they are chartered to fly charter as the second one down below that Airport Operating flights and they can charge for it. Certificate. I don't think maybe you could do away with one of those? Stephanie Medoff: So then the question would be,should the Airport charge them a fee for running their charter plane out of Ted Morris: The certificate itself is,we could actually go here? get it and show it to you,it is something you hang on the 1 • LAS CRUCES AT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 5 of 31 Jim Boykin: Well, in that case they would have to have a Ted Morris: Remember the resident pays a percentage. The license from the City,and they would have to pay 2%. concept was,the guy who lands transient,he pays landing fees Right? subject to the state law. If you will remember,the transient operator he flies in and pays a landing fee subject to those Ted Morris: Well,that is the proposal that would go limitations in the state law. The resident pays for whatever before the City Council at some point. land he leases on the Airport,or whatever facility they lease on the Airport,plus this percentage. The through-the-fence Jim Boykin: Okay,I didn't know if everybody understood operator pays that fixed fee,remember,the$125 or the$1,000 that. a year. Stephanie Medoff: So,that sort of becomes a user fee? Stephanie Medoff: So,at the beginning of the year First National Bank,if they still had their plane and everything, Chuck McLean: No,it makes them a business. would pay a fee to the Airport so that at any time they wanted to they could put a bunch of people on that plane and fly them Ted Morris: Let me explain the way it works. First off, anywhere? the City can't lay on a tax like you owe us 2%of your gross. But,the City is required to attempt to make the Ted Morris: In this case,if First National Bank is going to do Airport pay for itself,and we have been through this Part 135 operations off this Airport,since those services are discussion a couple of hundred times. already offered on the Airport,they would then pay$1,000 a year. That would be the fee for them to fly off this Airport. Jim Boykin: At least. What the ordinance is later going to say,is the City Council will set those fees by Resolution. Those fees are not in here. Ted Morris: The legal way to do that is to say"You may conduct a commercial enterprise on City property,inside Jim Boykin: Okay,the next one I have down here is City limits,i.e.the airport,and we will give you a UNICOM,which says"non-government air/ground radio nonexclusive lease to do so,and the fee for that lease is a communication station." Don't you have one upstairs? Isn't percentage of your gross receipts." that a government? Jim Boykin: Okay,that's in line with what we have been Ted Morris: No. saying. Jim Boykin: I understand that,and I don't want to embarrass Ted Morris: And,when you talk about who is who,the you,but I understand somehow there was a stuck microphone transient aircraft operator is Presbyterian Air Ambulance button out here for a while this last week. I was told that by flying down,picking up someone,and going away. A somebody who was suppose to know. I just wanted to verify resident is John Richardson who has his whole business that. over here in a hangar,picking up another patient,and flying them up to Albuquerque and returning. A through- Ted Morris: I haven't heard a stuck microphone in a long the-fence operator would be,let's say,Dar Kemp decides time,not since I turned the squelch down on the radio upstairs. to get into the business and maintains his office down at The last time I had a stuck microphone on our radio was the his construction offices,keeps his airplane here at the day that Waide landed gear up,and that was because we had airport,drives in,gets in his airplane,picks up a patient, thunderstorms. That is why I was upstairs,as a matter of fact, and flies away. He is a through-the-fence operator,and he turning the squelch down. But we haven't had a stuck would be dealt with as far as the fees go,differently than microphone on our radios unless it's somebody's(unclear the resident. word)and it's keyed up or something. Stephanie Medoff: Wouldn't First National Bank be under Jim Boykin: I thought as a suggestion for your operation up the through-the-fence defmition? here,since mostly you monitor,it might be to your advantage so that you didn't get in that position yourself and get Jim Boykin: They would have if they didn't sell their criticized,that if you weren't going to talk on the radio just airplane. unplug the microphone,then it couldn't be stuck. You can still hear everything going on. If you want to talk to him you Stephanie Medoff: Let's say they did have their airplane. can plug it in and talk to him. Chuck McLean: Yeah,that's what brought this on. Ted Morris: The radio upstairs doesn't work that way. Stephanie Medoff: So they are a through-the-fence,and Jim Boykin: How does it work? we would charge them a fee? LAS CRUCES AD RT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dec Jer 4, 1997 Page 6 of 31 Ted Morris: It is a meld between an FM system and a Stephanie Medoff. "The Airport Advisory Board shall review VHF system. It is an electronic connection between the those changes recommended by the Airport Manager"or other two. interested parties,and do the following? Jim Boykin: It has no microphone. Jim Boykin: Yeah. Hal Kading: The electronics(unclear words)on Stephanie Medoff. Oh,so you are saying that we are open for Thanksgiving. public input? Ted Morris: Well,did you call and have somebody come Ted Morris: Unfortunately,I would disagree with that,and out and fix it? Who came out and fixed it,Dick or Gary? only because we are addressing...the Airport Advisory Board can advise the City Council. In this case it states the specific Hal Kading: Gary and somebody from downtown. What authorities of the City,and this is not the paragraph where we happened I don't know,but it continued for a considerable would put in citizen input to the regulations. That is 16 hours. something else. Ted Morris: It took that long to pick up the phone and Stephanie Medoff. Is that in here though? call? Ted Morris: This is a procedure of..."The Airport Manager Jim Boykin: Well,nobody knew which one it was. It is shall from time to time review those policies,requirements, hard to figure out which one it is,you know. Sometimes standard forms,fees,charges,rules and regulations in effect at you get one of these crash things that somebody triggers the Airport,and recommend those changes identified as the switch,and you can't kind the darn thing. desirable in that review to the Airport Advisory Board." The next step is"The Airport Advisory Board shall review those Hal Kading: We wondered why our radio was silent,and changes recommended by the Airport Manager,and do the Leonard had changed the frequency because he didn't like following." In other words,it doesn't restrict them from the sound. reviewing any change,it says that the Airport Manager shall occasionally review things,and that I would present those Jim Boykin: That is one way to do it. Okay,I had things to you for your review. And then you would do one of something on the next page. This is just a those two things with those changes if any were identified. It recommendation. Where you say"the Airport Advisory doesn't limit the public from... Board shall review those changes recommended by the Airport Manager." Stephanie Medoff. So,that doesn't preclude us from listening to somebody's recommendations? Ted Morris: What is the paragraph number on that,Jim? Ted Morris: Correct. Jim Boykin: It's(c)on page three. Jim Boykin: So,you don't think that needs to go in there? I Ted Morris: What we did was,we handed out new things was just trying to broaden it a little bit. and they are in a different format. If you can say,like Section 8-2.(c). Ted Morris: I would be really reluctant to write something that would just kind of any time somebody wanted to bring Stephanie Medoff. Are you under"Authority of the City" something up,that it would automatically by ordinance have on page two? to be considered. I think it really needs to kind of be brought into the system in an orderly way. Jim Boykin: 8-2. (c),we are on different pages. Jim Boykin: Well,I don't think it will happen that way,but if Ted Morris: Only because the font is different. The ones that is what you want to do. we handed out today have bigger letters. Ted Morris: This series of paragraphs does not restrict Jim Boykin: Yeah,and I can read them better I can tell someone from bringing something up to this board,or to the that. Anyway,I was going to add in there another thing Council,or anything else. that said"by the Airport Manager or other interested party"just to cover all bases. Stephanie Medoff. So,does that answer your question,Jim? LAS CRUCES AIIQT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 7 of 31 Jim Boykin: I'm not hung up on any of these things. Hal Kading: That is almost forever. It seems like forever. Section 8-4.Required Reports. Would that be enforced by Codes Enforcement? Ted Morris: But, if he were to just say"Well,I'm done with the FBO business. I'm going to go away. You guys can have Ted Morris: An ordinance would be,yeah. all of this back." If we were lucky enough to have that happen,the next person who wants to lease his building we Jim Boykin: Should we put something in there about would do it this way. Codes Enforcement? Jim Boykin: Okay. The next one I have is Section 8-9. Ted Morris: There is no reason to. That would fall under some other code of the City of how they choose to enforce Stephanie Medoff: Wait a minute. Let me ask a question things. All this paragraph says is that if the City Council about that. While we are still back on that,a commercial lease says"we want this information about the airport,"they is valid for one year with four one year extensions or options. have to say"go out and find out the tail numbers of all of That is only a total of five years. What happens after five the airplanes." Then I will say"Yes,sir"and go do it. If years? somebody says"I'm not telling you my tail number,"I'll report it back up to the City Council,and they will decide Ted Morris: The City Council either re-establishes,or the what they are going to do. What this paragraph City Council can at any time change the fees and charges. specifically does,is make the City Council the sole agency That is the City Council's authority. What this does is,just that can require reports from airport users. Remember, like if you lease a piece of property from us,every five years that was a discussion item before whether I could say no matter how long your lease is,every five years your rate is "give me your tail number." Okay? And nobody wanted adjusted for the accumulative change in the CPI. me to have that authority,and nobody wanted this board to have that authority. So,what it would be is you would Stephanie Medoff. So,this means for five year I have the one recommend to the City Council,or I would through my rent,and then... chain of command,that we find out everybody's tail number,and then let them decide whether it is important Ted Morris: For five years you are locked in to the fee. enough to do so,and interfere with people's lives. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. Jim Boykin: Personally,I don't think we want that kind of authority. Ted Morris: Let's say that we go with a'/z%. Ted Morris: No,you don't. Stephanie Medoff: It doesn't mean you are going to kick me off after five years? You can't make me close up my Jim Boykin: Down here on 8-6.(1)it says...the reason I business? ask about this one is, is this the current practice,and it seems to me from what I understand talking to different Ted Morris: No. When you read the rest of this it says,if you people,maybe I've got this wrong. There is a lot of are a through-the-fence operator after five years,we could say difference because of past performance,not yours,there that"it is going to cost you$10,000 a year,and you can go are a lot of different agreements around here,and is this an away." But,if you are Southwest Aviation,the new attempt to make them all the same? Or,what do you do Southwest Aviation,after five years you would pay the new about the ones that are already in(unclear words)? fees that are set. But,because you lease all of this land,you would not be kicked off. You would not lose your land lease. Ted Morris: They are"grandfathered". Hal Kading: Currently the rates change so little,it costs more Jim Boykin: They're all"grandfathered." to administer the change on an annual basis then(unclear words). Ted Morris: What this would apply to is,this establishes from this point out how we would handle this airport Ted Morris: That is only because yours started out so low, commercial lease which is that 2%thing. Hal. Jim Boykin: Okay. Hal Kading: (Unclear words)on an annual basis,five years. Ted Morris: So,when Hal sells his business,or whatever Ted Morris: Then we will rewrite your lease. I will be more the provisions are in his lease exist for him forever until than happy to do that. his lease expires. Hal Kading: Just that part of it? LAS CRUCES AIIQRT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Deceer 4, 1997 Page 8 of 31 Ted Morris: Oh,no. It wouldn't be just that part of it,that (Unclear words.) is the point. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. Any other questions? Jim Boykin: Well,doesn't he have a point there? Is it extra red tape or something to have to do this once a year? Bill Madden: Before we get off of this page,the next paragraph down I guess is for FBOs and other commercial Ted Morris: In his case his ground rent is adjusted every operators who hold a lease with the City for the land. year for the accumulative change in the Implicit Price According to this,the way I am reading this is,that no land Deflator,which is different than the CPI. Everybody leases would be any longer than six years? else's lease says CPI. The way I get the Implicit Price Deflator is,I go into the Internet and get that information Ted Morris: No. The land lease would be for example,right from the U.S.Department of Commerce. now the standard is 30 years. Okay? What this says is that you still have to get this commercial...the way it will be in the Jim Boykin: Oh,my God. future,is the next guy who does it he will lease the land. That will be one lease,a land lease for 30 years. Then,if he wants Ted Morris: I'll tell you what. It is almost the same as the to conduct business on that property he will enter into one of CPI. But it is a different source,so I get it and it says these airport commercial leases at any time. But,let's say that okay the IPD increased by 2.1%this year. Then I send it is concurrent with the land lease. He has a land lease for 30 him a letter,and I take his current land rent which is like years. We will guarantee him the first five years at those fees, $243 and I multiply that times 1.021,and then I send it to but we won't deny him the right to continue business in the him and say"your new rent is$243.72." sixth year. Jim Boykin: Is all of this necessary? Bill Madden: Okay. It's just that you don't bump his fees up for the first five years. Okay. The other one is up at the top of Ted Morris: It is in his lease. This isn't something we the page where the City Manager may authorize interim dreamed up. This is something that is in his lease,and you emergency agreements to occupy City owned improvements, live up to the terms of your lease. and all that,all the way down here to natural disasters,or aircraft accident investigations. Do you really want to have to Stephanie Medoff: How long have you had that lease? go and get permission from the City Manager for someone to come out and investigate an aircraft accident? Hal Kading: Since January of 94. Ted Morris: No,no. They will come out and do it. What I Ted Morris: However,that requirement has been in there am saying is,picture where they reconstructed that 747 in the since 1978,I believe. hangar at Douglas Field on Long Island,or whatever it was. Hal Kading: 1987. Bill Madden: Okay. That kind of operation. Stephanie Medoff: Who was the Airport Manager when Ted Morris: What I am thinking of is,let's say that a 737 you first started over there? takes off out of El Paso,catches fire,and crashes on the end of the runway,and they want to reconstruct it in the big hangar Hal Kading: There wasn't a Manager. next door. Stephanie Medoff: There wasn't a Manager? Bill Madden: End of concern. Jim Boykin: Ed Garland? Hal Kading: Unless the scenario didn't have him taking off from here. Ted Morris: Was it Baca? Ted Morris: Never. It will never happen from here. Hal Kading: No. It was the Assistant City Manager who took care of the Airport. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. Next page then,Jim? Jim Boykin: It was Ed Garland. Jim Boykin: On Section 8-9. I just have a comment on the first one there. It says"No restriction in this chapter shall be Hal Kading: No. It was long before him. construed by any person to prevent assistance by any person to any other person in the event of an emergency." It's my Ted Morris: You mean when your lease started in 1967? understanding in the state of New Mexico,that people are LAS CRUCES AIIRT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Defer 4, 1997 Page 9 of 31 encouraged,and even expected to aide in the time of Ted Morris: This does not restrict the Federal Regulations. emergency. I think it is the law, isn't it? This is a City requirement to get emergency services to the crash site. Stephanie Medoff.- That is what it is saying,isn't it? Jim Boykin: I know. But,the first priority of a flight Jim Boykin: Is that what it says? instructor,or anybody else, is to call the Feds and tell them what is going on. Ted Morris: The purpose of this particular paragraph is to... Ted Morris: I believe the requirement is to call them within 24 hours. Jim Boykin: So, I'm just saying it a different way,huh? Charles Trego: Why would you not want to call your Ted Morris: What this does is it says you can't stop a emergency vehicles,or whatever,before you call the Feds? person from being a Good Samaritan. Ted Morris: Calling the Feds all they are going to do is to Jim Boykin: Well,I think that is state law. send somebody down tomorrow to investigate the accident. Stephanie Medoff.- Nothing in this chapter says that any Jim Boykin: Alright. Let me give you a supposed. This person can't help another person. airplane lands gear up out here,and you go in and call 911, and say I have a gear up landing out here. What are they Ted Morris: Well,the one thing I didn't want to do was going to do? write it so that it would say"you must assist." Now if you would like we can rewrite it to say"you must assist Ted Morris: They are going to come and secure the place. someone." They are going to make sure there is no fire. They are going to make sure there is no environmental hazards. They are Jim Boykin: Well,I'm not sure what the state law says. going to clean up any spills that might have occurred. They are going to rescue anybody who might be injured. Ted Morris: I'm not either. But,this is just a City ordinance. This is petty misdemeanor stuff. Jim Boykin: It is my opinion that,that doesn't necessarily have to be the law. Chuck McLean: That's alright. But you don't want to impede the guy's ability. You don't stand outside the Stephanie Medoff. Why 911? They are the Cops. fence and watch the airplane burn because of a rule that says I can't climb the fence. Ted Morris: No,they are everybody. I don't understand why you have an objection to calling out emergency services in the Stephanie Medoff- So,that means you could climb the event of an aircraft accident,Jim? fence no matter what this thing says,you go help. Okay. Jim Boykin: Well,for this gear up landing thing out here, Jim Boykin: Section 8-10.(a)—"shall also immediately which is what I am talking about,it is just a for instance. report the event to the Mesilla Valley Regional Dispatch Authority". Well,there are FARs out right now that say Ted Morris: Okay. you are suppose to call the Feds. You land an airplane on the runway,and you land it gear up like what was done Jim Boykin: What good would have calling 911 have done in here,the first thing you are going to do is to turn off all of that particular case? the switches. So,you are not going to use the radio, because you don't want to blow yourself up. Then,you Ted Morris: Well,it would have first off alerted the Airport are going to get out of there as fast as you can. So,that Manager that he needed to close a runway because there is an means you have got to go somewhere else to talk to airplane sitting in the middle of it. Which did not happen. somebody. We don't need to rehash this particular thing. Ted Morris: Okay. When you get to that place you need Jim Boykin: Well,the requirement is that any time you have to pick up the phone and dial 911. an accident,you report it to the Feds. Jim Boykin: Well,not according to the Federal Ted Morris: The Feds are not going to call 911. All they are Regulations. going to do is send an accident investigator next week. LAS CRUCES AII1T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 10 of 31 Jim Boykin: All I'm saying is,if you are going to pin this Dave Church: You tell the Airport Manager for sure,that guy guy down(missing words due to changing tapes). has to know right away some how. Then,the emergency guy needs to know if something is going on. I mean,you get out Ted Morris: As long as we are talking hypothetical,let's of the plane by yourself and the planes on the thing,you don't say you land gear up and you ding the prop,and you don't need the fire truck out there. They are not going to do want anybody to know it. You just want to jack it up and nothing,right? But,he needs to know right now. The get the airplane off the runway,and you are never going to Manager needs to know what happened. report it to anybody. Stephanie Medoff: So,the second best choice if the Manager Jim Boykin: Well,that is obviously against any is not available,then the second best choice is 911? regulation. Ted Morris: I would also like to point out that in this Ted Morris: I know. But,let's say that people do that, paragraph it says"if you learn of an accident or incident okay? occurring on the Airport shall also immediately report the event to 911 or the Airport Manager." That does not limit you Jim Boykin: That is not what I am talking about. I'm not from calling the FAA. talking about people doing things that are illegal. Charles Trego: Call anybody. Call your Aunt,your Uncle, Ted Morris: Well,what I am saying is,I don't understand call anybody else you want. why you object to the idea of any time there is an aircraft crash and potential injury,and most importantly that there Ted Morris: Call everybody and say"It wasn't me. I didn't is an airplane sitting in the middle of a runway,or die today." I've done that before. something like that,that you would not call out emergency services. Stephanie Medoff. It does say"shall also." It doesn't say who is before the also. Jim Boykin: From my point of view,the first thing that I would want to do is,I would go and call the Feds and tell Hal Kading: You don't even want to call the FAA. If it is a them to NOTAM this runway out because I've got an gear up it is not even an accident,and all you will do is make airplane in the middle of it. problems for yourself. Ted Morris: You can't NOTAM the runway out. That is Stephanie Medoff: Do you know what gear up is,Henry? the important point here. When you forgot to put your wheels down. Jim Boykin: I can tell them it should be NOTAMed. Jim Boykin: Okay. I resign my commission. Ted Morris: But they are not going to NOTAM it until Ted Morris: The reason I put 911 first is that we are not a they call me. That is the rule. continuously staffed position here. We don't have a tower. Even Leonard goes to bed,you know. Jim Boykin: Right now the Federal Regulations,as I understand them for flight instructors,are that I am Stephanie Medoff. After changing the frequency. supposed to call the Feds. Jim Boykin: Okay,I'm still learning. I give up on that one. Ted Morris: You may call them,but they are not going to How about(b)there. Suppose"each person passing through a NOTAM the runway out until the official people who can gate on the Airport shall close and secure the gate immediately NOTAM this Airport with is Me, Susan,Gary,and Dick after passing through,and immediately report any inoperable issue the NOTAM. gate or damaged fencing,"and I would like to add to that a little thing that says"unless otherwise agreed to or due to Jim Boykin: In this particular case,it is my understanding failure of a mechanical or electrical gate." I know you are not that the runway was NOTAMed out before you were going to agree with me. notified. Ted Morris: Absolutely I'm not going to agree with you. Ted Morris: It was not. That is a very important point. There is an individual who said that. But,that is not true. Jim Boykin: Actually,none of these people work for you,you see. So,if a gate doesn't work it is really the City's fault. It is Jim Boykin: Is that true? not all of these people that work out here. Marty Ditmore: Yes,sir. Absolutely. LAS CRUCES AI QT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dece r 4,1997 Page 11 of 31 Ted Morris: Sir,if I may point out that on November 2151 Jim Boykin: I don't argue the safety factor. I don't argue this a herd of 21 Black Angus cows got to this point on the is a nice good guy thing to do. I just don't see how you can freeway. It was an extremely dangerous situation. I would put it down in something,and force somebody to do it. I also like to point out,and I believe it was in February of know people who come out here who have airplanes,and I last year,that a herd of 20 Black Angus cows got to this was talking to one of them just before I came out here. And point because people left gates open. A cow will(unclear he said"I went out there the other day to fly my airplane and I words)a car as quickly as it will an airplane,and I am opened the gate,and I'll be damned if I will get out and close telling you,Jim,that I will never,never,ever,ever,ever, it." give up on my goal to make this airport out there safe for pilots and aircraft. Stephanie Medoff: Well,I got out and closed it! Jim Boykin: I am not going to argue with you on that Ted Morris: That person to me should get a ticket. point in the slightest bit. What I am going to say is,as long as the gates are operated by,and owned by,and Stephanie Medoff. I got out in stockings and heels. I mean responsible for operation by the City,if the City can not this is a person...truly I do not know who you are talking make the gates operate in the proper fashion,then it is the about,but it is silly. If me in stockings and a skirt can get out City's responsibility and not the people who are coming of my car. out here. There should be some way that you can mitigate this in some way to allow yourself a little bit of running Jim Boykin: What does that have to do with it, Stephanie? room. Stephanie Medoff. Because I recognize the importance of Ted Morris: There is no right of an individual to enter securing the Airport from cows or whatever. through one of these gates. There is no right that any individual has to enter through one of those gates in a Jim Boykin: All I'm saying is the responsibility should rest vehicle and come onto this airfield. No right at all. It is a with the management of this Airport. If somebody comes out privilege,and if somebody doesn't want to close the gates, here and manually opens the gate... and I have heard this argument again from Dale Jones and all those people down there,that is exactly his argument, Stephanie Medoff. They should manually close it. we can hire a guy to stand by that gate to open and close it for Dale Jones. Okay? But I think that is absurd. I think Jim Boykin: Of course they should! But how are you going that every person on this Airport has a responsibility to to enforce it? He can't enforce it. I came out here today and every other person on this Airport to assist in the safety the gate was open. and security of the pilots and aircraft out there on the apron. Ted Morris: Right now I can't enforce it. But when this ordinance goes in,I'll get my binoculars out,read their license Jim Boykin: I hear all that,but I don't think you have a plate number,and call the police to give them a ticket. legal right to do that. Jim Boykin: Ted,I've been trying to make you into user Ted Morris: If this is an ordinance,and they don't do it, friendly,and here you go off being a bureaucrat. then they get a ticket,and there will be a right to do it. Ted Morris: Sir,I think that user friendly is a poor choice of Stephanie Medoff. Let's discuss this. Somebody tell me words in this case,because I think that this safety issue far what you think,board members? exceeds any convenience issue that you are arguing. That is my position on these gates,and driving on the flightline,that it Chuck McLean: You know we had a crew of about five is a safety issue,and you are arguing convenience. guys I could name. I named them to the Mayor,and somebody sitting opposite him at the table said"gee,you Jim Boykin: Once you get the gates in there,and you can left one out,"and he is a dear friend and I will not mention restrict the numbers of people that can go through the gates, him. It is the typical four or five,all younger than me,all and they have something they can open the thing with,then I younger than him. There is an 86 year old guy that comes go along with you 100 percent. Right now I don't see how down here and works on airplanes,he has never bitched you can enforce it. about closing it. I have to open my hangar door and close it. I pull through and go back and slide the gate back. I Stephanie Medoff: He can't,but the gates will be up before think it has become a point,a surface issue of underlying this is passed. Right? They will. problems,discrimination against Ted. Jim Boykin: I always close the gates. Don't misunderstand. I'm just telling you. LAS CRUCES AIRWT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4,1997 Page 12 of 31 Chuck McLean: But you know,I've been on Airports Jim Boykin: Okay,I hereby resign all further arguments where if you go through the gate and don't stop until the about this,and give up. gate closes you get a ticket. That is a pilot's obligation. You sit there and block access until the gates close behind Stephanie Medoff. So,are you thinking it doesn't need to be you,even if it is automatic. an ordinance? Is that what you are saying,it doesn't need to be an ordinance, it should just be honor among... Ted Morris: This to me is one of the most critical safety issues that an Airport can face. Jim Boykin: Ted is never going to accept that. Jim Boykin: There is no question in my mind that is, Stephanie Medoff. But,is that what you are saying just for because you keep going this way,and you won't even my own clarification? Is that what you are arguing? listen to anybody talking to you. Jim Boykin: Well,I think there should be something in here Ted Morris: Jim,I will never listen to anybody... that says"unless otherwise agreed too"or something like that. Suppose some time you want to go down there and you want Jim Boykin: There will never be a mitigating to leave this gate open all morning because there is going to be circumstance in your mind where this can't happen! traffic going back and forth all the time,and you are going to have a man down there watching the thing. Suppose there is Ted Morris: That is correct,and I will tell you what, if I trucks going in and out of there working on some electrical go down and lock all those gates open,what will people line or some kind of a thing like that,and it gets to be say? ridiculous. They are spending a lot of time getting in and out of trucks,opening and closing gates,and costing you more (Unclear words due to several people speaking.) money for your correction. There should be some way that you could take care of a situation like that. Jim Boykin: I think there should be some other statement that could be made in here to protect you,as well as the Ted Morris: Let me answer that particular thing,and that is,if other people. you would like to include in here a recommendation that I have discretion in arranging things,and enforcing the Ted Morris: The City is liable if that gate is left open. If ordinance,then that is fine. But,to the best of my knowledge, that gate is left open,if you leave it open or I leave it open, this is the first time that anybody has recommended that the it doesn't matter. Or, if somebody who is not even Airport Manager have any discretion. Every time it has been, associated with the City leaves it open,it really doesn't you must apply evenly,exactly to you,to you,to you. Now,if matter,the City has a certain obligation. you would like to give me that sort of discretion. Jim Boykin: Which gate was left open when these cows Jim Boykin: I think there should be some kind of got on the runway? discretionary capability in this thing,because you should have some freedom of action in this thing. You shouldn't be pined Ted Morris: This one right here(pointing to the gate by down so that if you let somebody go through that gate... the fuel farm). And,I pointed out the cattle tracks all around his hangar to the individual who left the gate open, Ted Morris: Who would it be when you say"unless and he decided at that point that he would keep that gate previously arranged"between whom and whom? closed from then on. Jim Boykin: Well,or you can say"at the Airport Manager's Jim Boykin: Okay,that is not an automatic gate,but it will discretion." be won't it? (Unclear words.) Ted Morris: Yes. And,if it breaks then,that was a manual gate,so does that mean that it's"grandfathered," Jim Boykin: Does it have to be written? and that if that one breaks we don't have to have it fixed? Dave Church: (Unclear words.) When you tell the City Jim Boykin: No. I just bring up the question. I bring up Council how this event occurred,you had better have it in the question that's all. writing. Bill Madden: As far as people not wanting to close the Jim Boykin: I think he should have some discretion in this gate,just use the old rancher philosophy,you leave the matter. I don't think he should be pined in to the letter of the gate the way you found it. And,you ought to find it law. You should be allowed to do something that makes closed,and leave it closed. sense. LAS CRUCES AIRtT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dece r 4, 1997 Page 13 of 31 Ted Morris: In just this instance,or in a lot of instances? name and the hours that I get to keep this gate open,then we both sign and I walk out of here five minutes later... Jim Boykin: A lot of instances. Jim Boykin: And everybody has to know about this. Stephanie Medoff: Name another lesser instances. Give me another example that would be more likely to happen. Charles Trego: Post that provision on the gate. Ted Morris: Driving on the apron. Stephanie Medoff. How does everybody else feel about that? Jim Boykin: Why not? (Unclear words.) Ted Morris: Because in my perfect safe world for pilots, Jim Boykin: How about 8-13. (b)? cars don't mix with airplanes. Bill Madden: Can we visit 8-11 first? The way I read it,I Jim Boykin: I know. But,you should have some can't ride my bike from my hangar over to Vernon's and back, prerogatives. even,unless I am misunderstanding something—the safety areas. Stephanie Medoff. Let's get back to gates. What do you other board members feel about"with the Manager's Ted Morris: Safety areas are those mowed areas around the discretion"? runways and taxiways. Chuck McLean: I'm open to it. Stephanie Medoff. Mowed? Stephanie Medoff- I would say if you want it to be in Ted Morris: Yes.The safety area means"Any FAA writing,it would be a very simple thing to have a form. designated area abutting the edges of a runway or taxiway intended to reduce the risk of damage to an aircraft Ted Morris: Just add a sentence there that says"Waivers inadvertently leaving the runway or taxiway." The safety to this provision may be approved in writing by the Airport areas are all of these mowed areas. Manager." Bill Madden: I once saw a map that alluded,that made it look Jim Boykin: Well,I wouldn't think that it would be like all the ramp area was the safety area. necessary to put it in writing. Ted Morris: No. The safety area extends 100 feet from the Ted Morris: I think it should be. centerline of this taxiway. Stephanie Medoff: It's not like you would have to write a Bill Madden: Okay. formal letter saying"Dear Mr.Manager,I want to open the gate." You just come in here and sign a form. Ted Morris: Taxiway A and 150 feet from this runway,and 250 feet from that one. Charles Trego: I don't want this to be an easy thing to be said verbally and let it go. But,he said,she said kind of Bill Madden: Okay. That takes care of that. Section 8-12, thing,that's not the way to go. last week I thought you were leaning towards being able to lay down some stripes so that people could get from the west end Jim Boykin: Well,that is not the way I envisioned it. The to the east end during those periods when there were no air way I envisioned it,nobody could say this verbally except carrier operations. Ted. Stephanie Medoff. Which letter are you talking about? Ted Morris: The problem,Jim, is that if everybody did want was polite,and courteous on this Airport,we Bill Madden: `B",8-12.(b). wouldn't need this ordinance. But, if I say"Waivers to this provision may be approved in writing by the Airport Ted Morris: "C"is actually the one you are talking about. Manager." "No person may operate a motor vehicle upon the Air Carrier Movement Area,or upon any runway,taxiway,safety area,or Jim Boykin: Okay,put that on there. That is fine. FAA-designated instrument landing system critical area unless such operation is required for an aeronautical activity and: (1) Stephanie Medoff. As long as it is easy to get it in writing. The provisions of the FAA-approved Airport Certification As long as there are forms up there,and you can fill in my Specifications and FAR Part 139 are followed." What we LAS CRUCES AIRQT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 14 of 31 would have to do,Bill,this is the issue for those of you Ted Morris: Park it on the street. who don't understand. This area right in here is part of the Air Carrier Movement Area. Because right now the rule Stephanie Medoff. Not Frank Borman, Stevenson? says you can't drive across it unless you have a radio and a flashing light,and a reason to be there... Ted Morris: Okay. Stephanie Medoff. Which,Henry,is right in front of the Stephanie Medoff. I'm not going to park in the street,climb terminal. over a fence,and go between other people's hangars to go say "Hey, Stevenson,how are you?" Ted Morris: Right in front of the terminal. Then,it effectively stops people using the apron for transportation Ted Morris: Here is the way I envision it working. We are from this end to that end. You can operate down here,and going to have four locks that will be keypunch operated. The you can operate over here. So,what happens is right now people down at the East End will have one combination people have to come out through gates,and all the gates on probably,and the West End will have another. And, Hal will the Airport are broken,all the electrical gates are broken, have one because one of them is designed specifically to so everything is a manual gate. Once we get the electric support transient aircraft. Then there will be another one right gates in,then everybody knows,I've said it a hundred next to the terminal,and that is for use by the fire trucks and times today,I do not like the idea of any vehicles being out all that sort of thing. Now,you want to go see Wayne there and mixing it with airplanes. There are some that Stevenson,you give him a call and say"Wayne I want to have to be there—fuel trucks,our maintenance guys,and come out"and he says"let's go flying Stephanie,"and you that sort of thing. But,I don't like anybody else out there, say"great,but I don't have the combination." He says"the and the issue is right now that we have played off and on combination is 1234." Okay? You go in and you tap in 1234. with the idea of painting a road across the Air Carrier He gives you the combination,and you go through. And, Movement Area,and including a provision in the ACS that every three months we send out a letter to all leaseholders and would permit use of that road so that people could then say`,`we're changing the combination to 5678,"and we send it cross the Air Carrier Movement Area on that road. out to them by mail and everybody knows the new combination. We are going to change the combination on the Bill Madden: Our current 139 Certificate only denies first of February,and then he calls you up a couple of months access across there during air carrier movements. later and says"let's go flying." You say"Is it still 1234?"and he says"No,it is 5678." That is the way you would get into Ted Morris: It requires you during air carrier movement to that side,by invitation of a leaseholder. have a radio and a flashing beacon,that's correct. Do we have a copy of the Rules and Regulations dated February Stephanie Medoff. Why keep these so separate? Tell me,I'm I"? Susan,would you get those out? not complaining. Stephanie Medoff. Are the combinations on the gates on Ted Morris: Because vehicles don't need to mix it up with the West End and East End going to be the same? Are airplanes. they going to be a keypad with the same combination? Stephanie Medoff. No,this is so I can drive on the road. Ted Morris: No,probably not. I don't know. Charles Trego: You are fostering the idea of keeping them off Stephanie Medoff. So, if you have a combination down on by allowing them free access on between gates,in my eyes. this end,and a combination down on this end,what if I Why do you want to restrict it any more? don't know both combinations? How am I ever going to get in? (Unclear words.) Ted Morris: We haven't decided yet what the Ted Morris: Let's think of it this way. Stephanie you are the combinations are going to be. Let's say that you have a Chairwomen of the Airport Advisory Board,you should have need to go to the West End and to the East End,some the right to go anywhere you want on the Airport. Okay? All people do,most people don't. If you have an airplane of you should. So,the gates that we are getting I can give you down here in a T-hangar,you have no business being over a combination,you a combination,you a combination, there by Frank Borman's hangar driving around. everybody gets a different combination. (Unclear words.) Let's say that we have a general combination,a guest Stephanie Medoff: I want to go visit Frank Borman. I'm combination that is 1234,and it opens any gate. And,we up at my T-hangar and I want to go visit Frank Borman, change the combination every three months so that if you and I don't want to spend half an hour walking it. I want decide I really don't want this person coming to visit me again to go drive my car to see Frank Borman. in my hangar,then all you have to do is wait three months and LAS CRUCES AIRQT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Decer 4 1997 Page 15 of 31 the combination will change. But,your personal Bill Madden: Those are rules that we made,and I think we... combination still works. Each combination gate can hold up to 400 combinations. Ted Morris: These are rules that I made,and you guys agreed to. Stephanie Medoff: (Unclear words.) You don't want me to come to your hangar any more,and so... Bill Madden: Yeah,the problem is until we get those gates working,it may be excessive. I mean,that is what triggered a Charles Trego: That's up to the people to decide. lot of the argument. You know we've got people that need to get back and forth without having to thread their way through Stephanie Medoff. It is between you and me because,I these gates,especially mechanics. The guy has got to come can come visit you at your house and there is no down here to pull Zwaggstra's bird back to the other hanger, combination on the front of your street. and back and forth,running parts. Ted Morris: However, if you are going to drive your car Jim Boykin: What about your bicycle thing? I never did unto a taxiway, it is now more than just the two of you. understand that. You are now on a taxiway with someone else,with airplanes. Bill Madden: That is not a problem,because I can get to here. I don't need to go across the ramp to get to this building. Charles Trego: You're an individual that is a responsible I'm not in the safety area. I'm not crossing the safety zone. person who has been given the privilege to come on the airport anyway. If you are abusing it,you're abusing it. Ted Morris: Let me give you a for instance. For example, Aren't you policing that very fact that if some individual is Earl Comyford is building Ed Mimoso's hangar. He has a abusing their right here that their privilege could be vehicle and a trailer,and what he does is he goes from there revoked,ultimately? down to Hal Kading's place to buy a Coke and drive back on the apron. In my opinion he should go on the road. I have (Unclear words.) never stopped a mechanic from driving a pickup truck down to fix an airplane. I've never stopped anybody from towing an Bill Madden: Let's get back to the subject. Ground airplane. I've never stopped anybody from driving a fuel vehicles in our Part 139 during air carrier operations,and it truck. That is not the issue. The issue is that there are 15 lists about the warnings,the bells and whistles you've got people down at that end of the airfield,and there is another 85 to have on the vehicle. It says nothing about the other at that end all of who think they should use this apron as a period on the airport,the other 23 hours during the day highway. My position is that they need to use the road unless when there are no air carrier operations. So,by our current it is critical to aircraft operations. Part 139 we are not required to restrict vehicles across that area. Charles Trego: I agree. Ted Morris: That is correct. Bill Madden: Yeah. Bill Madden: Until we get gates that work,it seems like it Chuck McLean: You're right on my next step. He says would be... having split numbers is confusing. Stephanie wants more flexibility. I think if we don't have the same number serve the Ted Morris: Okay,let me explain where the rule that says gates,then we are encouraging people to do just what you you can't cross out here comes from. It is from these said. Interim Rules that you guys approved in January of this year,and effective February ls`."All motor vehicle Charles Trego: Yeah,we are. operations in the Air Carrier Movement Area shall be conducted in accordance with that. A copy of which is Chuck McLean: I can't get out the gate,and get in the gate, available from the Airport Manager. See the attached but I want to go down there and just see if he is at home. diagram on the depiction of the Air Carrier Movement Area and the Apron." The basic thing it says is"No Ted Morris: Let me give you an example. The keypads that person may operate a motor vehicle within the Air Carrier we are going to get are going to have like 400 combinations Movement Area,or north of the south edge of Taxiway that will open them. So,I give you one,and you one,and you Alpha,or in any area designated restricted by the Airport one. We use a random number table and we generate 400 Manager without the permission of the Airport Manager." numbers,and there is one that everybody knows, 12345. That opens all the gates,and anybody can use it. If it gets to the Stephanie Medoff: Wait,didn't we contradict ourselves? point where it's being abused or somebody is giving the number out,and we notice that there is truly unauthorized LAS CRUCES A T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 16 of 31 people out there cruising around,then we change that Jim Boykin: How many different agents would be using a number. That is the guest combination,but you still have lock box? Half a dozen? your number. Okay? Now,you move and go away. You move to Wyoming to be with what's his name. I delete Charles Trego: No. You are talking hundreds,500 people. your combination from the ones that the gate uses. Jim Boykin: Oh,that would fit right in with... Stephanie Medoff. Okay,and that's the kind of things it will do? Charles Trego: I know the technology exists, I'm just curious if the vendors who are vending will tell you what they have to Ted Morris: That's the kind of thing it will be. sell if that option were available. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. I don't mind assigning each Ted Morris: American Fence is doing the building,and we person their own individual number as long as it opens will be sure to talk to them about it. both gates,and they only have to remember their own one combination. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. My feeling is I think now this is more clear. I have my own number,you have your own Charles Trego: Then I misunderstood because I thought number,and they both open both ends of the gate,not you were saying that you would have to get the other necessarily the center one. But,these two end ones we will number for that gate. both be able to get in with our numbers. And then when I leave town my number would be deactivated. That is fine. Ted Morris: Well,we haven't decided the actual practice. That is good. And,there is a guest number that can change every six months or what ever. As long as I only have to Charles Trego: Okay. (Unclear words.) Are the gate type remember one number to get in both sides,I will drive down locks already nailed down? Let me give you for example the street. When I have to start remembering two numbers, what I was thinking about the(unclear word)are then I have problems. (Missing words due to changing tapes.) considered more expensive to get the kind that record. Is it possible to get that kind that record who is coming in and Jim Boykin: Let me throw out another suggestion here out? Is it very expensive? because it is going to come up. And that is,suppose somebody wants to go down,suppose it is me,I want to go Ted Morris: You have to run telephone lines. You have down that way,and I've got my little thing and I go down got to have a central computer to manage it,you know,all there and punch in the numbers and the gate doesn't work. of that sort of stuff. Now,I can't go down here and drive down there. But,I can go over to Hal's place and I can say"Hey Hal,I've got to get Stephanie Medoff. And we are just not that big of an in here and then I won't be crossing the movement area,and operation yet. let me in here because I've got to go down there." So that is what I would do. Is that all right? Ted Morris: The FAA will not participate in that kind of system. Charles Trego: It's the perfect opportunity for you to come and explain to your Airport Manager. Charles Trego: The system that the realtors use will tell you who has been in there last,when they came in,when Ted Morris: Yeah. Right now that is okay because you are they didn't come out. Here is an example,I wound up traveling across Hal's leasehold. But,let me explain what is taking a lock box and taking a key out and locking it in the going to happen. Remember the design of this gate is going to house. I got a call a few days later saying"you were the have one lane that opens and closes. The other is a swing last one in,and you've got the key." And,I thought"oh, gate,and we can go back to putting a lock on the swing gates you are right." that all have the same combination. We have changed them because of the problems we have had with the west gate. But, Ted Morris: It depends on how much memory there is, we can go back to having 4454 on the combination lock,and and... then if your combination doesn't work,I would like to give people the option of opening up the gate and going right Stephanie Medoff: So,that is an inexpensive little thing? through. Get out of your car,open it,drive through,close it, and lock it. Okay? Report the fact that the gate doesn't work, Charles Trego: Well,it's not so much it's an inexpensive and we will get somebody to fix it. system,it's a lock-box system. But,what I am saying is we might want to look at them. Stephanie Medoff. And, if I don't report the fact that the gate doesn't work am I going to get a ticket? wy �.v LAS CRUCES AII�tT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 17 of 31 Jim Boykin: You're going to be put in jail and hung up by here during the week,they are not going to mix it up with a your thumbs. vehicle out there. Stephanie Medoff Am I going to pay a fine? Stephanie Medoff. The Councillor has a question. We are back to the original question. Councillor Gustafson: I just want to mention again about Ted Morris: Okay,we can scratch that if you would like. these key boxes the real estate agents use,and they are really, But,I would say"yes,"and I will tell you why. Because really good. I had one number,I had my own number,but I there are people on this Airport who will not report a have to have it renewed every month,once a month,I have to broken gate and then use that information against... renew it or else it is not effective. So,any time I use it then that's recorded,and it is an excellent system,and I don't know Jim Boykin: Oh yeah, sure. whether you can afford it. I don't know how expensive it is. Ted Morris: You would have needed to have been through Charles Trego: I don't know if you have to go even that route. this for the last year with these gates. Ted Morris: This sounds difficult. But,what this whole gate Chuck McLean: My first thought was to put cameras on business is designed to do is be free. Remember the thing we these gates. passed out last month? The FAA's preferred solution is to make everybody take a long driver's training course,and have Ted Morris: You even wanted us to put fake cameras up a special license,and a special sticker on their car,and we can so that people would think... suck another couple hundred bucks a year out of everybody on the Airport. That's what they do everywhere. Now,we can (Unclear words.) do that,and then we don't have to worry about gates because we won't have anybody out there driving. They will say"I'm Jim Boykin: Ted has a problem because people who hang not going to pay$200 bucks. I'll park my car here and walk around airports,especially the little people,are probably to my hangar." I'm trying to make it so that it is as user the most anarchic people who are left in the world. friendly,and as cheap to the customer as possible. Charles Trego: The little people,not the high rollers. Jim Boykin: Does that answer your question,Bill? Ted Morris: Not the high rollers. Bill Madden: Yeah,I guess. You have the option to approve someone to use that ramp. I mean, 139 doesn't require that we Charles Trego: The low rollers. sanitize that ramp. Jim Boykin: The low rollers are the ones that are going to Ted Morris: That's right, 107 does. Let me give you an cause the problems. Because they don't like laws and example of a request that I had to drive back and forth on the rules,and they are going to do everything they can as a ramp. And the request was,"I need to go from a hangar down group to stop such rules. at that end to the FBO,and then back to the hangar so that I can prep an airplane,and I need to use the ramp to do so." Stephanie Medoff. And they are causing all of the Well, it is actually shorter to go from the parking lot of Hal's problems. place to the street in front of the hangar to travel. And so I said"No,you can't do that. We are not going to use this Ted Morris: And they are causing problems,and they are apron for driving because an alternative exists,and one that unsafe,and that is my position continuously,Jim. actually takes less time and is safer." So,I am using some discretion on who I say can drive out here,and basically the Jim Boykin: I know it is never going to stop,that's the people who can drive out there are the mechanics and the way they are. people who are making their living on this airfield day in and day out. Ted Morris: But, it will stop. Stephanie Medoff: Okay. People who are making a living? Jim Boykin: You can slow it down a lot. Ted Morris: On this airport day in and day out who need Ted Morris:Now,I don't know what happens in the access. You've got a truck full of tools because you are a middle of the night,or on Saturdays and Sundays when mechanic,or you're carrying around a cylinder head. You I'm not at work,but I can tell you right now that there isn't don't park on the street and carry it in through the pedestrian anybody driving back and forth and using this apron as a door of the hangar. You drive right up to the hangar. But,if highway during the week. At least when someone flies in LAS CRUCES Al) T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,DeceiWer 4, 1997 Page 18 of 31 you are a pilot all you have is your flight bag,then you misdemeanor punishable by a fine of no more than$100 or need to enter through the pedestrian door and walk to your whatever the punishment would be. hangar. Stephanie Medoff. Okay,are we having had this discussion, Vernon Wilson: There are no pedestrian doors at that end are we happy with what the fencing is going to be,and then let of the field. this stand? Ted Morris: Sure there are,every one of them has got one. Jim Boykin: With the provision of maybe Ted is going to be able to make a new lock box. Vernon Wilson: Those are private hangars. Stephanie Medoff. Okay. Are we approving this today? Ted Morris: That is what I am talking about. Ted Morris: What I would like is,I would like you guys to Vernon Wilson: What if they want to get to one that is come to a consensus. I would like us all to come to a further in? consensus about this,so that I can then prepare the supplementary Resolutions concerning fees and charges,and Ted Morris: Nobody who is further in has made a request. lease boilerplates,and so on and so forth,to go along with this when we put it all forward. Stephanie Medoff: Why can't they go through the gates and drive to their hangar? Stephanie Medoff: Do we need to approve it today? Ted Morris: They can. Ted Morris: Yes,I would recommend that you do. Stephanie Medoff. That's not an aircraft movement area, Stephanie Medoff. Okay,everybody,I need to know now. right? This whole gate issue,closing it,securing it,and reporting inoperable gates or damaged fencing to the Airport Manager, Ted Morris: Right. do you want that to stand in here or not? Stephanie Medoff: So,that is not even a problem. Ted Morris: And,we have added"Waivers to this provision may be approved in writing by the Airport Manager." Ted Morris: He's thinking I'm talking about Bill Moody, and I am not talking about Bill Moody. Stephanie Medoff. So,if everybody is happy we will move on. Okay. Stephanie Medoff: I don't even know what you are talking about. Jim Boykin: The next one I have is 8-13 (b),and I was supposing that perhaps,and I don't know if anybody will like Ted Morris: 1 know. Forget what he said. Scratch all of this or not,but it says"Storage of fuel in mobile tanks,trailers, that. or trucks, is prohibited,unless such trucks or mobile tanks are secured when not in use in the fuel farm or at another location Jim Boykin: Okay,I've got another one on Section 8-13 specified in a written agreement between the City and the tank (b). And,I would suggest. owner,and approved by the fire code." Because,isn't it true that we have this thing that we granted them,the West Mesa Stephanie Medoff. Wait. I'm sorry. Are we going to let Flying Association? If that is approved by the Fire Code,it's 8-10(b)stand? The one we have been talking about. not really according to 139 or according to this,is it? Because it is not on wheels,and it's going to be under a roof. Jim Boykin: Section 8-10? Ted Morris: Are you talking about the one in front of Mesilla Stephanie Medoff: Yeah,wasn't that 8-10 about getting a Valley Aviation where it was on wheels,and they built the ticket if you don't close the gate? Secure the gate and wall around it,or are you talking about..? report any inoperable gate or damaged fencing to the Airport Manager,and if you don't you will get a ticket is Jim Boykin: No,I'm not talking about that one. I'm talking the unwritten thing,right? about the one John Darden has. Is that West Mesa? Ted Morris: No. At some point in here when this goes Ted Morris: Well,that one is shut down. There was no before the Council there will have to be a thing at the end waiver granted for that. that says violations of these provisions is a petty LAS CRUCES A T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Deehl 4,1997 Page 19 of 31 Jim Boykin: I thought they were going to grant that Stephanie Medoff: So,I guess what we are saying is that waiver for them so that they could use that for their 172? I West Mesa's illegal tank has been taken care of,and another thought we approved a recommendation to the City that one will never be allowed on the field anyway,would never they could do that,and they had talked to the Fire Marshal appear? and they said"yeah,it's okay." Ted Morris: No. As long as the new tank meets the Fire Ted Morris: Then,when they went to a City Council Code,the Fire Department takes care of the Fire Code,not the Work Session,was it? Anyway,they went forward and Airport Department. John Darden says"Nope,the whole thing is resolved. We are going to buy a new tank. We can get one for like Stephanie Medoff: That's his question. I think that is what he $1,500 that meets all the code requirements." And,that is is saying"how do you guarantee my new tank is going to meet what they are going to do. I don't know if they actually Fire Code?" did it or not. (Unclear words.) Jim Boykin: Okay. I was not aware of that. Stephanie Medoff: I'm an individual and I have a plane,I'm a Ted Morris: The Fire Department,oh,I know what it was, club,and I want to put in a fuel tank. they went and had a meeting with the Fire Marshal and the Fire Chief. They came away with an agreement,which Ted Morris: You have to go to the Fire Department,and you included getting rid of that little tank,getting a new one, have to talk with me. and then we talked,and we can provide them with a spot if they need a place. They can do it underneath there,or we Stephanie Medoff: I do anyway. can put them down over across from our sunshades. There are all sorts of options. Ted Morris: So,you go to the Fire Department and they will say"You've got to have this thing parked at least 50 feet from Jim Boykin: Okay,as long as it is resolved. I knew that the nearest building." Then,you come to me and say"Where there was a discussion about it. is this place that I can park it?" We sit down and find a place. Ted Morris: What this is specifically designed for is,for Stephanie Medoff: And,do I get a certificate from the fire example,you know where Hal Kading's trucks are parked guys? out between his hangar and the taxiway? Ted Morris: I don't know what they do. That's the Fire Jim Boykin: Yeah. Department. Ted Morris: I would like those trucks to be parked Stephanie Medoff. So,this covers it? somewhere else. That is inside the safety area for the runway. I would like to see those moved,but where would Ted Morris: Adolph Zubia says"I'm okay." Hal move them? Jim Boykin: Okay. I have a couple more then I am through. Jim Boykin: Well,that would be the question. Stephanie Medoff. No,that is good. You have done our Ted Morris: Yeah,see? I'm letting him just park all of his homework for us,and you brought issues up for discussion, trucks over in the fuel farm. Let's say that you guys and I appreciate it. wanted to buy a fuel truck collectively to refuel your airplanes. Where would you park it day in and day out? I Jim Boykin: The next is 8-16(c). don't want to see it parked next to a hangar,and so on and so forth. And,we don't need to reference,I don't think, Bill Madden: Can I bounce one on 8-14? other portions of the City Code. The Municipal Code includes the Fire Code,and would include this chapter. Jim Boykin: But of course. So,I don't think we have to say"and the Fire Code" because the Fire Code is... Bill Madden: On page 8 at the top of the page—the storage of hazardous and toxic waste and what not. Jim Boykin: Well,I don't really care about that. It seemed to me like that was not covered. With my Stephanie Medoff: Where are you? understanding now,what you are saying is that it has been covered. Now the detail has been taken care of,so I'm through. • w LAS CRUCES AI) T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dece r 4, 1997 Page 20 of 31 Bill Madden: Section 8-14. Is it going to require a 6-foot Jim Boykin: Okay,I have 8-16(c). I'm sure you're not going locked fence around such stuff? Okay,does a drum full of to agree with me on this one either. It says"Except in an waste oil fall into that category? emergency reportable to the FAA in accordance with the provision of FAR Part 91,all takeoffs and landings of Ted Morris: I think it's when it is identified as such by the airplanes will be made on runways." And,I would propose to City Fire Code. And,I don't believe that waste oil or oil is add to that"or at the discretion of a qualified flight instructor considered that. who assumes full responsibility for the action." Bill Madden: Okay. Ted Morris: I completely disagree with that. Ted Morris: Our oil over here is approved by the Fire Stephanie Medoff: Where would that be,on a taxiway? Code. Over by the beacon tower if you have used oil you can go dump it in our barrels over there. Jim Boykin: I think a flight instructor ought to be able to land anywhere he wants to,as long as he takes full responsibility Bill Madden: Oh,very good. for it. Ted Morris: Yeah,we've got this company that comes and Stephanie Medoff. For teaching students emergency takes it away for free. landings? Stephanie Medoff: People don't know this? Ted Morris: Let me make my case for this. I believe because I was an instructor pilot and examiner in the Air Force,not in Ted Morris: I'll put it in the newsletter. the civilian world,but the way we taught short field or narrow field landings was to force the student to imagine it on a Bill Madden: Yeah,it would be nice to know. runway. You know, stop by the first taxiway,or stop by the 1,500-foot marker,or something like that as opposed to Ted Morris: Yeah,but I don't want you dumping your landing on a taxiway. The problem with a taxiway is that we garbage in the dumpster though. You have to take that have,especially coming up for the next nine months,we are away. going to have all sorts of people out there on taxiways,and vehicles will be driving around. The big problem I have with Bill Madden: We've got our own oil barrel that we have that is... been using,and I didn't know if we were going to have to build a 6 foot fence around it with a locked gate. Jim Boykin: You don't trust a flight instructor? Ted Morris: When it comes to oil and gas storage,and Ted Morris: No. I absolutely don't trust anybody to do that stuff like that,you have EPA requirements for berming,a kind of thing. I don't trust myself to land on taxiways. rubber mat underneath it,containment area,and all the rest of that sort of thing. If you have a 55-gallon drum you are Charles Trego: It's not a normal act,right? doing that with,what I prefer that you do is,put it over there in our oil place rather than just having it in the corner Ted Morris: It's not a normal act. of your hangar. (Unclear words.) Bill Madden: It's not in a hangar,but what it means is I can't walk to it with my bucket,I've got to load it in my Jim Boykin: I make the same point I've made about twelve car with the risk of spilling,and drive over there and times before. The taxiways on this airport are bigger than the unload it. runways at Hatch. Ted Morris: Then, in that case what you should do is, Ted Morris: Then,I would suggest flying to Hatch and make sure the environmental concerns are taken care of. If practicing on those short runways. the New Mexico Environment Department comes out to the Airport,and starts driving around and they see a barrel Jim Boykin: Do you know how much money it takes to run an sitting,and they go over and look,and there is a whole airplane? bunch of oil and it is just sitting on the ground,they get really excited about it. I don't know why,because it Ted Morris: Yeah. evaporates. You know they drilled a well over here to give water to this place back in the 60s,and they hit water at Jim Boykin: Well,you could make three or four landings here 1,400 feet, 180 degrees. So,you can spill all the oil you on a taxiway before you can go to Hatch,and it is a lot want here,and it will never get to the water table. cheaper that way. + r LAS CRUCES AIT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,DeceWr 4,1997 Page 21 of 31 Ted Morris: Then,let's designate one of those taxiways, just seems to me like you are destroying the capability here let's say"D"as 22 Left. Let's do something like that if that it's not necessary to destroy. that is what we want to do. Ted Morris: My experience with students,Jim,has been that Jim Boykin: This is not the Air Force,Ted. We have been if you show them the edge of the envelope,they will go to the doing this for 35 years around here, and nobody has ever edge of the envelope all the time. If you show them how to had a problem with it. And,you are trying to make us into land on taxiways,they will figure they can do it themselves. a military organization. And, it is a habit pattern that I would prefer not be developed here. t Ted Morris: No,sir,I'm not trying to do that. I don't think that is true at all. Jim Boykin: I have a different interpretation. If you show them they can land on a narrow short strip,that happens to be Charles Trego: I think Ted had a good point. And the a taxiway,then when they have to do it they won't be upset. point is,that if you are going to start a policy where people They will be able to do it. And,it might save their lives,and are going to be doing things,and if it comes under the that is my whole point. constrains of an airline instructor where he is going to be trying to teach certain principles,fine. Designate the Ted Morris: I'm sorry. I disagree. If you need a fifty-foot practice area so we know where that is going on at. wide runway,land on the right hand or left-hand side. These Because,if it is willy-nilly left up to them because we runways are a 100 feet wide. If you need to identify the don't have a controller up here,an accident could happen. runway as being small,land on the markers. I mean,I'm sitting here and my minds thinking,this is a student who is learning to practice a certain maneuver,and Jim Boykin: The other thing I object to in your particular you are letting him... approach here,and it is going to be the same with(e)and(f) down here,is you are getting into the airborne realm. Because Jim Boykin: But,the student is not responsible for the I can shoot an approach on this taxiway out here and not touch airplane,the instructor is. down,right? Charles Trego: An accident is an accident. When it gets Ted Morris: I suppose you could. out of control that's not a matter... Stephanie Medoff. Shoot an approach on a taxiway you said? Jim Boykin: Hey, if an elephant had wings it would be a damn big bird. You can feel that way all you want to,but Ted Morris: Here is the bottom line. The City can not control you are just taking away a good instructional capability the air. from an instructor. Jim Boykin: That is right. Stephanie Medoff. Okay,but what if we did designate one taxiway that you could do that on? Ted Morris: Okay. But,the minute you touch down,you belong to the City. Call the FSDO and find out. Call anybody Jim Boykin: You can't do that because you can't specify you want in the FAA. So,the bottom line is,is that I consider, the wind. personally,and the people I talk to with the exception of you and about two other people,consider landing on taxiways to Ted Morris: I'll tell you. This is another one of those be dangerous. things that I think is a critical safety issue,and I think landing and taking off on taxiways except in the case of an Jim Boykin: I don't think it is something that should be done aircraft emergency is to dangerous to contemplate. except in certain situations. Jim Boykin: Well,I disagree with you,and I never will Ted Morris: The FAR Part 91,I believe it is Part 91,and it agree with you. So,people can vote me out on this one, may be in the AIMS instead,but it says the most dangerous but I am totally opposed to you on this because I have thing that can happen at an uncontrolled airport is an done it so much. And,I think it has been good for my unexpected maneuver in a traffic pattern. This airport has left students. What I want to do is teach my students to hand traffic to runways. Anything else to me is dangerous operate at the full limit and range of the capability of their unless you have cleared it,coordinated it,and talked about it airplane from the lowest speed to the highest speed,and on the radio. And,that is just the way it is.`It is unsafe. I from the widest runway to the narrowest runway,as close spent 20 years in the Air Force,and I saw a couple of crashes as I can so as not to waste their money. I'm not even after the fact,when I flew into a field some place. But,we doing it any more because I can't afford to,and because have had three here in two years. One of them by an FAA I'm not doing it anyway. I've given all of that up,but it Flight Examiner in the airplane. And,my point is that general LAS CRUCES AHWRT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dece- r 4, 1997 Page 22 of 31 aviation in the state of New Mexico the class"A"accident Jim Boykin: As far as I'm concerned,that is not legal. rate is about 40 per hundred thousand flying hours compared to an airline average of point five. General Ted Morris: Sure it is. aviation is an inherently dangerous thing. Jim Boykin: No, it isn't. Because in the air you have no Jim Boykin: All the more reason to teach people to land control over these people,absolutely nothing. And,the Feds if on narrow short runways. you go up and talk to them,and obviously you haven't on this subject or you would know. Ted Morris: All the more reason to insure that at this airport that they do what they are suppose to do in the Ted Morris: I have on this subject. traffic pattern. Jim Boykin: No,you haven't,not on this subject because their Jim Boykin: Well,I disagree with you,and I will never provision for uncontrolled airports is"see and be seen." They agree with you,but I guess I can be voted down. Now, do not wish for people to rely on radios. They do not wish for let's go on. I would like to put(e)and(f)in one thing,(e) people to rely on traffic patterns. They wish for students and only. I would like for it to say this"All airborne everybody else to rely on the provision of"see and be seen." operations shall be in accordance with FAA policy of"see So,you must come to every uncontrolled airport recognizing and be seen,"and procedures recommended in the AIMS, that you can have a dang crash,an airborne operational crash. Airmen's Information Manual,should be followed when practical there being no enforceability for airborne Chuck McLean: Why is that translated at this airport to mean: operations." Now,the reason I say that is because in the (1.) I'm not required to have one.(2.)I don't have to turn my AIM it is suggested that you come in to the middle third of radio on. And therefore I won't turn it on! I'm a flight the down wind runway,turn down wind,and so forth and instructor too,and I have been around a few years also,and I come on in,but this is an uncontrolled airport. So, it is think it stinks! merely a suggestion. So,there is no way you can enforce that as long as it is in the air like you just said. The City of Jim Boykin: What does that have to do with anything? Las Cruces has no control over the air. The other thing it says here about the traffic advisory frequency is that it is Ted Morris: Because this argument is real simple,Jim. not an official thing,it is run by a contractor. Chuck McLean: I guess I've been here long enough so,"I'm a Ted Morris: CTAF you broadcast in the blind if nobody cowboy from out here in the wide open spaces;I don't need answers you. rules." Jim Boykin: I know,but you don't have to have a radio to Jim Boykin: You're talking about people. I'm talking about land here. rules. I'm not talking about personality. I'm talking about rules. Ted Morris: That is correct. That case is provided for here. Chuck McLean: You have people who will not turn their radio on,and you know who the hell they are. Jim Boykin: There is no way you can enforce people to use a radio here. Jim Boykin: I know people on this airport whose radios have gone out,and who are not going to fix them because they can't Ted Morris: I would go out and give them a ticket. If I'm afford it. sitting here on the radio,and I see somebody come in,in a King Aire,and they come in and they haven't declared an (Unclear words.) emergency or they're not NORDO,or anything else,and they come in and do right hand traffic and land the Jim Boykin: Well,there is no provision anywhere except in airplane,I'll go over and give them a ticket. the AIM,which is nothing but suggestions,and there is no enforcement ability,and if you put this thing down and Jim Boykin: You don't have any right. somebody takes you to court,they are going to win. Ted Morris: Well,I will when this is passed. Ted Morris: They are not going to win. Jim Boykin: No,you want. Jim Boykin: They are going to win. Ted Morris: Yes,I will because they landed here. Ted Morris: They are not going to win. LAS CRUCES AIRT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4,1997 Page 23 of 31 Jim Boykin: You have no right in the air. Vernon Wilson: You don't have to turn it on. If it is operable you don't have to turn it on. Ted Morris: Let me say this,Jim. The City of Las Cruces let's say that it decides it doesn't want anybody to takeoff Ted Morris: According to the FAA in uncontrolled airspace. or land within the City limits except on the runways at its This rule here would require you to turn that radio on,and I international airport. They can pass that law. The City can will tell you exactly why. Because a gentlemen taxied out of pass any law it wants about airplanes on the ground. this hangar in the First National Bank's airplane. Jim Boykin: Right. Jim Boykin: See,you are after Waide! Ted Morris: And,this says if you do these things and then Ted Morris: I'm not after Waide. land in our City,and you haven't done the things we want you to do to make things safe for our citizens,neighbors, Charles Trego: I just want to hear about the incident. and guests at our airport,then we will give you a ticket. Ted Morris: He taxied out and took off on that runway. Now, Jim Boykin: I think this is unenforceable. When you are that runway was NOTAMed closed and Gary was down there not here somebody can do whatever they want to. with the big green sweeper at that end. This guy didn't have his radio on,he didn't talk to anybody,and Gary had the radio Ted Morris: Well,when I'm not here,Jim,people do all on. Then,the pilot of that airplane,and I'm not using any sorts of things. I know that. names ever,that pilot of the airplane came over and complained to me,and to Dick Woohner,that he was"going Stephanie Medoff. I speed all the time,and look for Cops to the FAA,by God,and have us all horsewhipped because we the whole way. didn't put a big white"X"on that runway while we were sweeping it." And,that he didn't ever have to use his radio, Jim Boykin: To me you are making yourself look and that kind of behavior on this airport,to me,is unsafe. ridiculous because you are putting something down here This is designed to stop that kind of behavior. that you can not enforce. Dave Church: From my point of view,what if you gave me Charles Trego: I'm not so sure of that. permission to tow my glider up there,and what if I'm on the other end of that tow and I'm on the radio,and the guy comes Jim Boykin: Not by the Federal Regulations I have been out and does what he just did? He didn't use his radio,and working with for ten or fifteen years. I'm on the radio. Charles Trego: It hasn't been tested,that's all. Jim Boykin: You've had an accident,and the guy screwed up! Jim Boykin: Oh, it has been tested many,many times. Ted Morris: No,no,no,no. Stephanie Medoff. But, it says operable radio,so if your Stephanie Medoff: And your widow is saying"I don't care." radio is broken it is inoperable,and it doesn't apply to you. Charles Trego: Stop the argument there. Ted Morris: That's right,that's what it says. (Unclear words.) Jim Boykin: The next thing you are going to have to do is you're going to have big fences,watchtowers,and guard Vernon Wilson: What is the difference with that as opposed dogs because you are going to see these people coming in to what happened last Saturday when I took off,and I caused here... two airplanes to go around. My radio was working. Your radio wasn't working. Ted Morris: When we go over 100,000 enplanements, regular passenger enplanements a year,we will have to Ted Morris: Okay. have all of that. Vernon Wilson: It caused two airplanes that were inbound to Stephanie Medoff: Listen to what Vernon just said. go around,or was it last Friday? Vernon Wilson: If the radio is inoperable the airplane is Jim Boykin: I don't think that you can control airborne non-airworthy,and you can't fly it. airplanes. Not until you get a tower,then you can. Until then you don't have a leg to stand on. You're just going to make Ted Morris: That's not true. yourself look foolish. L . LAS CRUCES AIR2T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4,1997 Page 24 of 31 Bill Madden: All this thing is,is trying to encourage safe policy with the City's authority as its management authority of operation. its own property,the only thing that I could do to stop somebody doing something unsafe on this airport,was to tell Charles Trego: Right. them to leave the airport,and never return. Remember that conversation;remember this whole thing and why we have Ted Morris: You and I have basic philosophical gone to this so we can give people tickets instead of telling differences. The difference is,that I actually believe that them"Your means of livelihood and your hobby is over you can prevent accidents. And,most importantly,the forever. Get off our airport and never come back."? That was City owes it to the people on this airport,and the people the only way we could control anything on this airport. that use this airport,to attempt to prevent preventable accidents. Jim Boykin: It is my opinion that if you put this in as it is written,and I could be over-ruled like I could on the other Jim Boykin: I think you're right except I think you should ones,but I will vote against it. But,if you put this in like this live by the law while you are doing it. what you're going to wind up doing is you're going to wind up having somebody going to the FSDO up there,and they are Ted Morris: Nothing in here contradicts the FARs. going to say"Hey,this guy said I couldn't do this"and they are going to say"He can't do that." Jim Boykin: Yes,it does. Ted Morris: No,they won't say that because I have cleared Ted Morris: No, it doesn't. every single thing in here with the FAA,and all the other people that need to clear on this. Stephanie Medoff: Yes, it does. Jim Boykin: Not according to three or four flight instructors Ted Morris: No,it doesn't. It says if you operate on our I've talked to about this. airport,then you need to obey the City. Like you said,you can go up here and without a radio shoot approaches all Ted Morris: Flight Instructors or FAA people? day long and just never touch down on Taxiway Bravo. You can do that, fly right-handed traffic and everything Jim Boykin: Flight Instructors and people who have talked to else. Now,I am going to pick up the phone and call the FAA people all the time,who are old head around here and FSDO when I see that happening,and I will make a have been flying a long time. complaint. But,if you don't touch down, legally there isn't a thing the City can do about it. Ted Morris: I don't need to hear any old heads saying what they think they talked with their buddy up there about. That is Jim Boykin: Well,I think you should call them,because I bull. don't think that is safe. Jim Boykin: Well,okay so I've got to believe you,but you (Missing words due to changing tape.) don't have to believe me? Stephanie Medoff: I tend to agree with Jim that we Ted Morris: No,no,no,I'm not saying that. What I'm telling shouldn't set ourselves above the FARs. you is that the Chief of the FSDO has told me this is okay. Jim Boykin: Well, see as far as Ted is concerned,he's not. Jim Boykin: That particular item is okay? You have run that particular item by him? Stephanie Medoff: But,I think in this case it does appear that way. It really does. Ted Morris: Yes,sir. As a matter of fact... Charles Trego: Do we need some council that is outside of Jim Boykin: Word for word? this(unclear words). Ted Morris: Not only that,this has gone to the Airports Stephanie Medoff: There are people on the airfield like Division in Fort Worth and the Airports District Office in the person he is talking about,who scares me,who are Albuquerque,and they have also said this is okay. going to do what they damn well please. Jim Boykin: I submit that you probably have talked to the Jim Boykin: I don't think that is right. people that are the ground people 139 about this,and you don't even know what the Part 91 people think about this. Ted Morris: Remember the reason again,guys,why we are doing an ordinance. Because when we were going to a Stephanie Medoff: Let me ask you a question. LAS CRUCES AT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4,1997 Page 25 of 31 Ted Morris: Yes,I do. Because I have talked to the FSDO enforce,or we can't catch you every time,then we are just about this. going to ignore the whole situation." Jim Boykin: I don't believe it. Jim Boykin: No,we have to recognize the limits of our authority. Ted Morris: Okay. Call me a liar again,Jim,that's fine. Stephanie Medoff. I think so too. The FAA doesn't require it, Jim Boykin: I'm not calling you a liar. I disagree with why do we? you. Can't we disagree without calling each a liar? Jim Boykin: I'll tell you what happened to this guy. He went Ted Morris: You said"I don't believe you." out there,he didn't turn the radio on,or it was warming up or some kind of a dang thing,maybe he missed a switch. He got Stephanie Medoff: You said you don't believe he talked to out there,he took off,he recognized this guy was on the end them. Okay,guys,listen. Let me ask you a question about of the runway,and he realized"Oh my God,I'm flat." So,he this thing where he took off at the end of the runway where came down here and attacked. That's a normal thing,it Dick was up there mowing at the other end. happens. Ted Morris: Gary was sweeping. Charles Trego: Attacked? Explain that to me. Stephanie Medoff. Gary was sweeping. Okay,are you Jim Boykin: He attacked Ted! Because he didn't put an"X" supposed to put a big white"X"up there? on the end of the runway. He didn't have a leg to stand on legally. Ted Morris: No. Chuck McLean: The best defense is a good offense. Stephanie Medoff. What are you suppose to do? Jim Boykin: Absolutely! That's what he did. Jim Boykin: No,that is not necessary. He screwed up. Ted Morris: You NOTAM the runway closed,and you let Ted Morris: The fact is,I think that if the guy... the FBO know that the runway is closed. Charles Trego: That screw up could have cost a life! That's Stephanie Medoff: And that is what you did? what bothers me. Just as a person looking from outside in,not a pilot,I'm just sitting here thinking is it worth losing a street Ted Morris: Yes. sweeper over? Stephanie Medoff. And,the only way for this person Stephanie Medoff. Yeah,but see,the FAA I'm sure went over taking off there is to contact... this a million times,and they don't see it that way. Ted Morris: There are many ways. They could have Ted Morris: No,that's not true, Stephanie. picked up the telephone and got the NOTAMs for the airfield. They could have gone over to the FBO and talked Stephanie Medoff: A screw up is not worth a lost life. If they to them,or they could have gone on the radio and thought that,they would say"On an uncontrolled airport you announced their progress at which point Gary would have have got to use your radio or you will lose your license." said"Hey,I'm on that runway." There are lots of ways to find out. But if you go out and don't check the NOTAMs, Charles Trego: If an accident occurred,and the man had been and you don't talk to the FBO,and you just get in your killed,would he have been held for manslaughter? Would this airplane and don't turn on your radio,you are going to have been a real legitimate case? cause an accident. Jim Boykin: He wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Because Stephanie Medoff: There were three ways for this guy it was NOTAMed, it was recognized,the FBO knew about it, who is a flight instructor,who did this thing,and I don't and everything else. And, if he had run into that sweeper care how many rules you write in here,a person like that is down there and killed a guy and himself,wrecked the airplane going to do it anyway. And,I agree with Jim,it makes us and everything,he is totally responsible for doing something look like it's an iron grip ever controlling. wrong. Ted Morris: So,we are going to tell people then, Charles Trego: And Dave's example? What about a guy Stephanie,that"well,if this appears to be to hard to using the runway? z LAS CRUCES AIT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 26 of 31 Jim Boykin: A guy using the runway,he is also totally Ted Morris: Let me say something,and that is,I believe that responsible if the FBO has been notified,and everything this is a sufficient enforcement mechanism that you give else is the same. somebody a ticket,and if it is a fifty dollar fine,he gets his day in court,okay? He can explain it to the Judge,and then he Vernon Wilson: It has nothing to do with the FBO. The can go and complain to the FSDO,or whatever he wants. But, FBO has no authority to tell anybody anything. the day that Dave gets whacked in his hang glider,or Mesa gets crunched and 19 people die on our runway because Ted Morris: That's right. somebody else is responsible for the accident is going to be a Vernon Wilson: The traffic or any of that. They are not really sad day. required to do that,and they are discouraged from doing Jim Boykin: That's the kind of thing Ed Lindsay said when that. they put in the ILS out here,and he said"You people are really going to get it out here. Some day somebody is going to Jim Boykin: That's true. be on an ILS out here,and somebody else is going to run into them." And we said to him"Well,Ed what are you going to Ted Morris: It's pilots coordinating with other pilots to do about that? There is no way to enforce that." And he said make the traffic patterns safe. And,that's what this is "Well,you're just going to be(unclear words)." designed to do,make everybody that has a radio use it. Ted Morris: See,the way to enforce it is to use the authority Jim Boykin: I know,but you can't enforce it. City's have,and that is,you can't operate on our property unless you do the following things:A,B,C,and D. That's Charles Trego: Okay. My father always said"Try the what this does. It says"You can come out here and fly around carrot before the stick." Is there anyway to flip this to a all day,but if you touch down you had better do things the positive inducement? way we want you to do them,which is in a safe orderly fashion,and in accordance with the FARs and the AIM. Dave Church: You can't say"recommended"? Jim Boykin: Well,the AIM is just suggestions. Let me ask Ted Morris: Everybody who uses their radio gets a dollar. you another question then. How deep are you going to take this? Charles Trego: I don't know,I don't know. I'm serious about that. Ted Morris: What do you mean? Jim Boykin: When North American Aviation was down Jim Boykin: Well,Mesa Airlines comes in from the East,and here,and they had all these students,and they were flying they come straight in across the river. around here,and everybody at this field,people on this field are totally undisciplined. Ted Morris: And, it says"If you use your radio and announce your progress, it's okay." Ted Morris: Some people. Jim Boykin: Well,some of them. Jim Boykin: I know,but that's not what it says in the AIM. Ted Morris: It says"No person shall land an aircraft at the Charles Trego: So,we've got a percentage that are airport with an operable radio capable of communicating on undisciplined? the CTAF assigned to the airport,unless during the course of the approach to landing that person has used the recommended Jim Boykin: We've got a percentage that are airport traffic radio reports listed in the FAA's Aeronautical undisciplined. When all of these kids were here,they Information Manual." It doesn't say procedures. It says use came in and they hit the thing,like the Airmen's your radio. If you don't have a radio,then"No person shall Information Manual said. Because they were trying to land an aircraft without an operable radio capable of learn how to fly the right way. They flew the traffic communication on the CTAF assigned to the airport,unless pattern,and they did everything. Then,all the sudden, during the course of the approach to landing that person has everybody else on this field suddenly said"Hmm"and used the recommended airport traffic pattern procedures found they started paying attention to all the rules. Because they in the FAA's Aeronautical Information Manual." So,what it didn't want to have an air to air collision,right? Now,all says is,if you've got a radio and you're broadcasting to these kids had everybody trained real nicely,and then they everybody in the world,you can fly straight ins. If you don't went away,and everybody fell back into their old habits. have a radio,then you fly left-hand traffic. And,there is no way to enforce it unless you get a tower here. Stephanie Medoff. Oh,without an operable radio! p S, LAS CRUCES AlR T ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4, 1997 Page 27 of 31 Ted Morris: And then,what you say is important which is Charles Trego: That is what I am saying. That we either get "see and be seen." The guy flying the straight in looks into this,or we don't. We're either pregnant or we are not. over there to see if there is anybody on down wind. Stephanie Medoff: I have a feeling that we should not be pregnant. Vernon Wilson: The FARs say that you have to conform to the traffic pattern if you depart from an airport. Jim Boykin: Then you don't think this suggestion is a good idea? Ted Morris: I'm not trying to change the FARs. I'm not trying to take over the FSDO's responsibilities. Charles Trego: I do not. Vernon Wilson: It doesn't say that you have to conform to Ted Morris: I disagree with you, Stephanie,completely. the traffic pattern coming to an airport. Chuck McLean: Well,we've got a couple of war stories,and Ted Morris: This says if you land here,you better have I've got one. The only time I've seen this get in front of a done so if you don't have a radio. Judge,he was a non-pilot,and he was asking my bosses (unclear words). They brought it in and it said,I've forgotten (Unclear words.) the catchall paragraph,it says"You'll check all sources of information before any flight." And,if they get you they can Jim Boykin: I would rather instead of trying to put this say"Hey,you used a telephone?Why did you land in six iron-fist on this thing,just suggest that this was good inches of snow at Flint Michigan? That didn't show up on the procedure,and please follow it. It is recommended,and let radar? Did you call Flint?" I mean,they could do that it go at that instead of trying to go out here and be a... because it is a real catchall paragraph. Charles Trego: You might as well leave it out. Jim Boykin: It's like the 104`x'Article of War,there is something in there... Ted Morris: Then you might as well not even have it,Jim. Chuck McLean: The point they make is,when that Judge sits Charles Trego: Yeah,I agree. there and he's not a pilot,a lot of them are not,and this guy walks in and the Judge says"You've got to check all sources, Jim Boykin: No. I think it's worth putting in there. did you?" He says"Yes I did." The Judge says"Okay,well here is a source,the Airmen's Information Manual,do you Charles Trego: No. I don't because I think you've got have to know what is in here to get a pilot's license? It's more liability saying"this is a recommendation"and they published by the government,it's available at most FBOs,did don't follow it,and I think they have grounds to... you look at it?" The guy is smart he says"Yes"and he did. And the lawyer got up and he said"Mr.Bogue"which was my Jim Boykin: We have a book this thick,and this big that's bosses name,"that is only recommended procedures." And called the Airmen's Information Manuel that is nothing but the Judge is sitting there watching this back and forth and Mr. recommendations. Bogue says"Yeah,it's only recommended procedure,and I decided to do something else." And the lawyer says"Mr. Charles Trego: And,with an accident all it would take is a Bogue,how many manuals have you printed? How many good shrewd lawyer,from a big city,to take on that books have you written about aviation? Here's a book,I can textbook. They can find mistakes in any book. understand it, I'm a layman,I'm a Judge." Boom,boom, boom,Mr.Vogue sat down for 90 days. "You're in the face (Unclear words.) of this big thick book with all this free government printing in it,and everything else and you think it is recommended Charles Trego: My point is,what I'm saying is you either procedures. Who the hell are you to override that?" And,that write something to stop something to make it policy. To is exactly what he said to him,and he swore in court! actually make a definitive statement,or you go and you sit back and you say"Fine,we will go with the established Ted Morris: And you know,I'll tell you to capitalize on that. rules. They have already been set up." And,let those I have talked with most of the flight examiners up there at people take the heat for how they wrote or didn't write FSDO,and they all say that if you don't follow the AIM that's those rules,the FAA or whatever. not wise. (Unclear words.) Jim Boykin: I wouldn't argue that. Ted Morris: Okay,but the thing is that you're advocating that we not... 1. J LAS CRUCES AT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Decer 4 1997 Page 28 of g 31 Jim Boykin: What I am saying is I do not think you have because this didn't exist,would you feel any better? In other the right to take over that prerogative. words,the fact that(unclear words)the bubble head,the half Charles Trego: Ted has brought up a point,and the point brain deranged individual that came in,I don't know. is,do we or do we not have that right? I don't know,this Stephanie Medoff: I think I would have to trust the FAA. is a legal issue. Vernon Wilson: How about the pilot who flies in and Stephanie Medoff. I question it. inadvertently has never read this and violates it? Charles Trego: And you're saying that you have talked to Stephanie Medoff. Which could happen a lot. the people at,who is it again? Ted Morris: Let me tell you what would happen if this went Ted Morris: The FSDO—the Flight Safety District Office in. We would put it in the Airfield Directory. You go read the in Albuquerque. Airfield Directory,and you will find many fields that say"The AIM traffic patterns will be used at this airport." So,it is done Charles Trego: Okay,and you know you've sent this to everywhere. It is done in a lot of places. him and he has checked it off. I mean,here is what we are getting to,there is a point of contention that somebody is Charles Trego: Well,I mean there is a point that you don't going to drag this into a courtroom at some point. That the want to be handing out a bunch of citations to,if it really was potential is there,that if and when it does at least you innocent,but happened. So,now you are left with your want... problem of making judgement about the infraction. Ted Morris: The City has clear authority to make a rule Stephanie Medoff: And,I'm paying a$45 ticket,when who like this. you are really after is the other guy down there. You know? I feel like I am being... Charles Trego: But it's not a clear issue from the discussion going on. It doesn't seem very clear as to how Charles Trego: But,you shouldn't be afraid of that because the authority... you are already operating with your radio. Ted Morris: No,no. You have pilots who don't think the Stephanie Medoff. That's true. I really,truly,never do City has that authority. But the City has the authority. without a radio even if the place is empty. Charles Trego: Not the authority,but how the authority Councillor Gustafson: Since the City is ultimately responsible works. for all of these things,I think it might be important in this delicate issue to have Ted write a letter,a written Stephanie Medoff. I think these policies are an insult, interpretation of the whole issue,and run it by and let our actually,to your conscientious pilot. They are aimed at a Legal Department that is capable of looking into it,determine couple of(missing word)on this field. I think it is an if this is the best thing to do. These regulations wouldn't insult,it would be an insult to me. It really would,as apply to you because you always do things right,but there are someone who used to fly around this airport. And,to put some people out there that are not going to do it right. I think them in because we have got jerks,who will laugh in your it might be a good time to really get something in writing so face over anything. To insult me because we have those that they can interpret it for this board,and then run it by jerks out there,I just don't like it,and I don't feel good Legal. about this. Chuck McLean: Stephanie,you just described the basis for Charles Trego: Do you do this anyway,as a pilot? Do most laws, it's the lawbreaker. you do whatever it is that you do before this regulation? Councillor Gustafson: It's not you,it's the lawbreaker. Stephanie Medoff: I always do the pattern,and always use the radio. Ted Morris: I will be more than happy to send this off to (Unclear words.) everybody and their brother and get it in writing. Councillor Gustafson: Get it in writing. Charles Trego: So,you're taking it personal when it's the one time that as a board member now, looking not as pilot Ted Morris: That's right,you bet,sure. but as a board member,being a responsible party for setting this policy,that if an accident were to happen l � a LAS CRUCES AIANT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,DeceWer 4, 1997 Page 29 of 31 Stephanie Medoff: We are trying to fine-line it here Jim Boykin: But they're the ground people. between being user friendly,and coming in here with an iron-fist and changing everything the way it ever was. I Ted Morris: It doesn't matter,this is a ground issue. think we have done enough of that without adding this stuff to it at this time. If we are trying to have any kind of Jim Boykin: I tend to disagree with that. good public relations up here,I don't think that these things are called for,even if they are called for. And,at Ted Morris: If you call the FSDO they will tell you that as such time as I personally feel that they are called for soon as the guy touches down,he is yours. because we are having so many of these,then I say let's go back and amend the ordinance. Stephanie Medoff. Okay,I want all you guys to walk around this airfield and say"It could have happened that this was put Charles Trego: Like I said before,either do it or don't do in,and it wasn't. Thank your lucky stars. Obey what you it. know to be good piloting,and don't do this any more," Ted Morris: I don't have any problem with what she Ted Morris: Is there anything else? Did you have more,Bill? recommends. We can remove these now,and put them in later if it continues to be a problem. Bill Madden: I had one. This is a revisit of the landing on the taxiways. It is a hypothetical question,but if a glider Charles Trego: I agree with that. operation,a flying sailplane,not necessarily a hang glider, were to come here,would you authorize them to land between + Ted Morris: Is that the consensus,or do you want to take a the taxiway and the runway? We did it at Alamogordo vote? because it was the easiest way to clear the runway with a non- powered sailplane. (Unclear words.) Ted Morris: With this landing on runways,I don't have a Chuck McLean: The recommended procedures as found problem with putting in the same thing "This provision may in the AIM. be waived in writing by the Airport Manager." If you would like to do that,and then that way we can...if it winds up where Ted Morris: I wouldn't put them in an ordinance. somebody insists that they have got to do it,we can say "Saturday mornings between 8:00 and 10:00 local you can Stephanie Medoff: Yeah,this is an ordinance. land anywhere you want." And,we will put it in the Airdrome Directory and all the rest of that sort of thing. But,I'm not Ted Morris: This is an ordinance,this isn't a policy. going to arbitrarily sign an agreement just because somebody asks for it. Chuck McLean: I mean when you put it out to the public. You don't have to say it's enforced,you just say it's Jim Boykin: That is a good fallback. recommended. Chuck McLean: Everybody here ought to visit west Texas on Ted Morris: Do you want to take a vote on it,or do you a weekend.They are an example of playing it loose with the just want to kind of nod your heads and have a consensus regulations. We witnessed five airplane accidents in about a on it. two-hour period. Stephanie Medoff. I don't care,whatever. Jim Boykin: It's just a little sand strip runway down there. (Unclear words.) Chuck McLean: I know,but it's just because they get out on the fringe like somebody mentioned before,and we get real Stephanie Medoff: Just without a motion,just take that loose,people doing what the hell they want to do. It's catchy, thing out? really catchy. Ted Morris: Remove it and...okay. Jim Boykin: I was kind of upset when the school left,because it meant that I had to wake up. I had to start watching closer. Stephanie Medoff: I also liked Councillor Gustafson's I had to be more careful because as long as everybody was idea. flying the traffic patterns and everything,I actually got a little lazy. Because I knew they were going to being doing Ted Morris: Should it ever come up again we'll be sure to everything all right. But,when they went away,some guy is get it in writing from the FSDO this time. I got it in going to be coming straight in from Deming,or straight in writing,by the way from the 139 people. from Albuquerque,and some times they call,and some times LAS CRUCES AIAW tT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING,Dece r 4, 1997 Page 30 of 31 they don't,and you had better see them. That's the basic have a question. The City Council shall establish if a non- rule"see and be seen". That is what they go by,because a profit club may take up residency? radio can go out,or there are all kinds of things that can happen. But,it is without any question the safest and best Ted Morris: Yes. thing to do to follow the AIM procedures. My only point is,I don't think without a tower you can enforce it. Stephanie Medoff. Is that how it has always been? Charles Trego: But you know,it's like an automobile too. Ted Morris: Yes. I think there are a lot of things that are expected of people when you drive an automobile,and how many times do Stephanie Medoff: That's nothing new? you take your hands off the steering wheel because you had that mobile phone and a cup of coffee. Ted Morris: That is nothing new. Chuck McLean: You're at their mercy on a two-lane Stephanie Medoff. Non-profits may offer any goods or highway. services whatsoever? Charles Trego: You say we are not talking about people, Ted Morris: The question she has is about non-profit under we are talking about people that is the problem. Miscellaneous 8-19. The concern about non-profits for those of you that haven't thought about non-profits on the airfield,is Jim Boykin: I know,but when you're trying to write a rule that if they start offering commercial goods and services to that covers every instance you can't do it. every Tom,Dick,and Harry,they compete directly with people that were in the business and trying to make a profit. Stephanie Medoff. Is that it for this whole thing? Charles Trego: What is an example? Ted Morris: I have one last thing I would like to ask,and that is,has this been a sufficiently contentious meeting that Ted Morris: Selling gasoline,fixing engines,doing you want it verbatim again,or can we go an do regular maintenance on airplanes,and giving instruction. minutes? Charles Trego: So,you mean like a club or something? Jim Boykin: I don't care. Ted Morris: If you are a club,let's say you are a non-profit Stephanie Medoff. I would say that it would not hurt for flying club. What these provisions would say is that if you the people who use this airport to have heard the want to offer flight instruction as a club,you have to have a discussion concerning the policies that they are going to member who is a flight instructor who offers instruction only have to live under. to other club members. Bill Madden: But,will they read it though? Stephanie Medoff. That's how it is now. At least that's how our club is. Stephanie Medoff. If they should,I think it would be good for them to see what we argued the last half of the meeting. Ted Morris: That's right. But,you can't turn around and say "Come to our club and we will give you cut-rate instruction Ted Morris: Can we then do this part in verbatim because we do it non-profit,there's no overhead here." And, transcript,and the rest in regular minutes? you can't sell gas to people and say"I'm a non-profit so I am tax exempt." Stephanie Medoff: That is how I would like them. Stephanie Medoff. That's why we join these clubs. Chuck McLean: I volunteer to come in and listen,and tell her to put this down,and don't put that down. Ted Morris: That's why they join clubs. You can't sell it,you can only put gas in club airplanes,but you can't put it in Ted Morris: The big concern I have is I don't want to be everybody else's airplane. The idea is that the non-profits the one to edit the minutes for context. facilitate people being able to fly cheaply,but they've got to be a member of the club,while we don't destroy the business Chuck McLean: And,we don't want Susan having to do it that exists here on the airport. either. Stephanie Medoff: But,non-profits may sell or exchange Stephanie Medoff. But,this last part I think is important capital equipment and/or facilities with non-club members? to have on record for posterity and whatever in writing. I AMU LAS CRUCES AMQT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Dece r 4,1997 Page 31 of 31 Ted Morris: Let me see;"May sell or exchange capital Stephanie Medoff. No,no,no,because I did zero. equipment and/or facilities with non-club members." Ted Morris: Hey,I love this,the Airport Manager can waive Stephanie Medoff: He can buy my engine,I'm in the club, stuff,but it's got to be somewhere in writing. Because if I and he can buy my engine? start waiving things for one person,and... Ted Morris: Yeah,the club decides to get rid of an Jim Boykin: I understand. airplane. Ted Morris: Then,somebody else will come and say,why are Stephanie Medoff: He can buy our airplane? you doing this? Ted Morris: You can put your airplane up for sale,you Stephanie Medoff: Any other business? don't have to sell it to another club member. (Unclear words.) Jim Boykin: I make a motion we adjourn. Ted Morris: Are you guys talking about the EAA's Charles Trego: I'll second that motion. breakfasts? Stephanie Medoff: All those in favor of adjourning say"aye". Bill Madden: Yeah. All members: Aye. Ted Morris: There was a thing in here that said something The meeting adjourned at 4:00 PM. to the effect,and I think I must have taken it out,that you could do fund raisers as commonly excepted. But,because that requires a common law approach,or definition,I just took it out. But,if you are a Boy Scout Troop,you sell Girl Scout cookies,right? Now,having your monthly breakfast is one thing. If you decided to have a burrito wagon and be out here selling burritos everyday,all day long,then you need to get a business registration,and so on and so forth. Stephanie Medoff: Do we need a motion to pass these as amended? Ted Morris: Well,you're not actually passing them,but recommending that we continue to go forward towards the City Council with this stuff. It will still be a couple of months. Stephanie Medoff. Are we done? Ted Morris: Let me say that what I am trying to do is put together an entire package to give to the City Council, rather than feeding them these,and then a month later giving them fees and Services,and then a month later giving them leases. Do it all at once,this will be an ordinance,the other things will be a Resolution. Is that still the way you would like us to go? Chuck McLean: Sure. Stephanie Medoff: Thank you for doing your homework. No kidding. Jim Boykin: I think maybe I did a little too much. w AIRPORT MANAGER'S REPORT FOR AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD—Dec. 4, 1997 TEXT: YOUR NOTES: ALP Project#12: 'Taxiway C"Project. - Proposed schedule from contractor(all 1998): -- Close Taxiway C: Feb I — May 31 -- Close Taxiway B: Feb 22 — May 10 -- Close RWY 12/30: Feb I - Feb 22 -- Close RWY 8/26: Feb 22 - Mar 15 -- Close RWY 4/22: Mar 15 - May 10 New Gates Installed by: Jan 18 (but may have to wait on City power, which should be available by Feb 1) -- AWOS Installed by: Feb 8 (but probably won't be certified for some time) Airport"Polio'progress&time/phase: - Discuss proposed ordinance. - Other events have proven overwhelming, and I'm not prepared to present the Fees& Charges, boilerplates, etc.,this month. Auto Sunshades: Notice to proceed given last week. Project should begin in mid January. City Architect is office of primary responsibility for this project. Aviation Day: Separate Agenda Item Bright View Land Company development: NTR? Electricity: Underground distnNition lines on main airport now installed. Lines in East End hangar areas to go in prior to Mar. 31, depending on route AAB approves today. Poles will still be used at West End,also should go in by Mar. 31. SWA request results: $5,000 to go underground. Option: Follow west fence around parking lot with Poles. Hangar Parcel Leases: Although not policy issues, the following situations will be placed before the City Council, and therefore this Board should be aware of them: - Mr. Wayne Stevenson would like parcel in new sub-development — need AAB concurrence with new East End subdivision. - Mr. Wallace has responded to a request for what he intends with Parcel 17—he plans a hangar with completion in the summer. This satisfies the lose requirement to complete constriction w/in 2 yam• 1tl Master Plan. Separate Agenda Item Notes: Proposed new East End `hangar subdivision.' This is the site we leaked at last month. We need to arrive at a consensus on this plan so that we may obtain FAA approval for the layout plan change, conclude Mr. Stevenson's lease, install electricity, natural gas and water, and proceed with the construction of the taxiway. It would really help if the Board can decide on a solution today. Mesa Airlines plans to add an additional LRU ABQ flight daily at 1300 beginning Jan. 7. Natural Lias: All hangar owners who are going to have signed up. Mainline construction should begin within 2 weeks. Newsletter: I plan to put out another newsletter around Christmas,/New Years time. If you have any information you'd like to include, please get it to me ASAPly. Pavement Maintenance. - Costs to date(for crack and acrylic): $115,208.62. - Resh*of RWY 4/22 scheduled for Dec. 8-9. Cost about $6,000. Will use state pricing contract. - Traffic Ops Dept. will do taxiways. Machine still broken. All PIREPS to date are positive. Rental Cars: Independent effort apparently stalled. However, Thrifty, will locate in terminal begriming about Jan. 1. Same group that has El Paso franchise. Main office will be on North Main across from Denison Building (also home to Ryder Truck Rentals). Will occupy a booth in the passenger terminal. Plan is to be open all day, 7 days a week, at the Airport. Some cars will be at Airport, others will be ferried up, or customers taken downtown as needed. Verbal agreement to $75/mo. for kiosk rein, and 2% of time and mileage charges for commercial ops. Corporate*mMI inspection of facility scheduled for Dec. 19. Will require approval by City Council (Resolution) of lease, because it contains new conditions. In the interim, we'll give them a month to month rent on kiosk. Water Line Extension: Right now planned from NW corner of Wallace lot to NE corner of lot, with fire hydrant installed at that location. Construction planned for next week. 1 This special meeting adjourned at 4:30 p.m., Monday, December 15, 1997. 2 3 4 Janie Matson, Secretary 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 3