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09/04/1997 QMQo 1Q0 Qmow AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING City of Las Cruces,New Mexico September 4, 1997 Members Present: Gene Kennon, Jim Boykin, Chuck McLean, Bill Madden, Charles Trego Members Absent: Stephanie Medoff, Frank Dailey Others Present: Ted A. Morris Jr., Airport/Industrial Park Manager; Susan Pfeiffer, Recording Secretary; Hal Kading, Southwest Aviation, Inc.; Vernon Wilson, Crosswinds Grill; Martin Ditmore, hangar owner; Bill Prestridge, Civil Air Patrol; Barbara Prestridge, Civil Air Patrol; John Darden, West Mesa Flying Association; Bob Hammel, Bill Moody, Wallace Westwind; Terry Sullivan, West Mesa Flying Association. Jim Boykin: Well, it's time, shall we call this meeting to order,since Stephanie is not going to be here? Jim Boykin: Okay. Chuck McLean: I move that we approve the minutes of Chuck McLean: Can we waive that? the last meeting. Ted Morris: What's that? Bill Madden: Second. Chuck McLean: Because we have a copy in here. Jim Boykin: Any discussion about the minutes? All in favor say aye. Susan Pfeiffer: Were there any key points? All Members: Aye. Ted Morris: The two things that are coming up, let me tell you what happened. Monday night the City accepted Jim Boykin: Any opposed? Which one of these is an the grants for the fencing and gates, Taxiway B agenda? reconstruction, and $63,000 in matching grants for pavement maintenance. In your handout set, I'm sorry Ted Morris: Do you have the agenda, Susan? they're not in color,the originals were,but we don't have a color printer, just so you see what pavement Susan Pfeiffer: I can go get one. You do have it? maintenance is going to look like. On September 15th, at Okay. the Council meeting, we'll present resolutions to apply for, and accept the federal grant for the Taxiway C Jim Boykin: Okay, unfinished business. I guess we'll Project, which looks like right now C.S. McCrossan turn that over to you,Ted. Construction is the apparent winner, and they are still finalizing everything. The FAA needs to concur,we need Ted Morris: For the Airport Manager's Report? to accept the FAA grant, and a whole bunch of things need to happen on September 15th. But,there will be the Chuck McLean: No, just the unfinished business. Jim contract award, and the authorization for the Mayor to probably doesn't realize,three of us have to be downtown apply for and accept the grant when that paperwork at 1:30 for another meeting, so we ought to, if we can, comes through for the Taxiway C Project, and that will skim over the stuff,and let the guests speak. complete the administrative front end of the Taxiway C AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYEER P.O.Box 20000 LAS CRUCES, NEW MEXICO 80004 Phone 505/526-0000 SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 2 Project, and construction will probably start in October. Bill Madden: I notice Enterprise Rent-A-Car and Yellow Also, on the September 15th agenda, Ed Mimoso has Cab are on here, and yet I understand we can't seem to submitted the request for parcel #21, and Mel Rennacker get them out here to pick people up. Actually, this is a for parcel#19. Parcel #21 is north of Wallace's big gray different subject,but how do we get that done? hangar, and parcel #19 is south of Marty Ditmore's hangar, and that concludes that row of hangar space that Ted Morris: I don't think the City can force somebody to is all leased out now, and those are on the agenda for provide service. approval on the 15th of September. We have received approval for the part-time maintenance worker position to Bill Madden: Yea, I know, but can we subsidize them? be filled, and we should be able to complete the What is it going to take to get a rent-a-car out here? I interviews next week. That concludes this portion. understand we are losing business. Chuck McLean: Gates are the big issue now, so where do Ted Morris: We tried, as we all remember, we did a you think that will fall in the contract? Request for Proposal. We had Avis and Advantage come to the pre-bid,and we were basically offering them one of Ted Morris: I don't know. the booths in the terminal for $75 a month, and 2% of their gross, compared to 35% nationally, and all the Chuck McLean: But, it is irrevocably tied to this parking spaces they could possibly want. They all said contract,right? there wasn't enough money in Las Cruces, we aren't coming. Now,we were giving it to them for free, and the Ted Morris: That is correct. If you are interested in the end result is that...I don't know what we can do about gates issue, it is the big issue, it has occupied a whole lot that. The liability insurance requirements have destroyed of my time recently, and a whole lot of the Mayor's time, all the rent-a-wrecks and ugly duckling rent-a car, they the City Manager's time, and my boss' time. The most don't exist, so you are talking about national companies, recent request I have is from the City Manager, to give and they are making business decisions at a national level, him a list of all known or suspected businesses and and Las Cruces appears to not be included in those plans. leaseholders at the airport,that is what this handout is for. If you wouldn't mind going through it, and letting me Gene Kennon: The bus company has been explored, I know if there is any corrections that you know of that guess,as far as service out here? need to be included in this before I give it to him today, I would appreciate it. Ted Morris: You mean the City bus? Chuck McLean: This is going to fall on Jim, the other Gene Kennon: Yes, what I'm trying to think of...if the three of us are going to be scoot. bus company could provide, maybe a car. So, they don't have a car now,but if the bus company had a car out here, Ted Morris: Well,anyway,that's that. and had it available, and for a small fee let people drive it in, and drive it back. We might catch some of them that Jim Boykin: What's going to fall on you? way. I don't know if we ever talked about something like that,or not. Ted Morris: Nothing. You guys look at it, just let me know. Ted Morris: That concept is called a courtesy car, but I don't know how we would provide it, control it, rent it, Bill Madden: You don't need it today,right? the City would have to enter into the rent-a-car business. We have looked at that too, and we would have to rent Ted Morris: Yeah,I need it today. cars for somewhere around $50 a day, and that is for old cars, like the old junkers they give us to operate with out Jim Boykin: Well,I'm not conducting any business here. here. But, for $50 a day, the City does not want to be self-insured in that case when they rent cars to the general Ted Morris: Okay, we'll change that, Jim. We can just public,and the insurance for an institution is huge. take him completely off the list. Okay,you can look at it later if you like, and give me a call. I need to get it in the Vernon Wilson: Hertz is charging a$100 per day. mail this afternoon. Ted Morris: There is a lot of people who have looked Chuck McLean: Some of them are just people who into providing rent-a-cars, or loners, or something out advertise. here, and everybody has come to the conclusion that they can not recoup their investment. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 3 business, as opposed to encouraging business, and it is a Chuck McLean: But, I would sure support Gene's idea, major policy decision that needs to be made by the City and have all along, that we are working at cross purposes Council. saying we want to bring commuter airlines in here, and things like that, and the City is just going to have to go Unknown: What is the cab fare? the extra mile just like they do for all the other damn wire companies and crap that come in here. Chuck McLean: Too much. Charles Trego: They could have a bus ride out, when Unknown: About$20.00? Mesa comes in for the morning flight,and one back out. Chuck McLean: About that,at least. Chuck McLean: Sure. Hal Kading: Twenty of Twenty-two. Vernon Wilson: That's four times a day. Unknown: It's about that at Santa Fe too. They don't Charles Trego: But,they could start out with two. provide bus service at the airport,believe it or not. Chuck McLean: And,they could also have a few key Bill Madden: The bus doesn't solve the problem of the places to pick people up for return flights if they are here transient pilot once they get into town. on business from Santa Fe, and what-not, rather than hit all the hotels. I think that it would work, I would really Ted Morris: Right, you need rent-a-cars, that's the encourage it. Are you going to recommend something on answer, and in this town there is only two rent-a-car it? companies, well there's three actually, Toyota which has about 30 cars, and they will come pick you up; Enterprise Gene Kennon: Well,I'm tossing it on the table. which will come pick you up Monday thru Friday, and Saturday morning if you make prior arrangements, and Chuck McLean: I think that, here we are creating an they haven't rented out all of their cars; and Hertz which island, come to our beautiful town, and sit on our island is located in the Hilton,which will not come and pick you with the rest of us out here, we can't get you downtown. up under any circumstances. So, if you want to get It's crazy. picked up here, or you want to rent a car, like say from Hertz, then you would need to stay overnight at the Gene Kennon: You know, the bus company is Hilton, then the Hilton bus will come pick you up and subsidized,we all know that, but it could be an extension take you down. of that, maybe. Maybe, there is a different way to approach it. Chuck McLean: Yea, only if you have reservations at the Hilton. Ted Morris: Well, Mike Noonchester is the Transit Director, and he and I have talked, repeatedly, about the Ted Morris: It's a real problem. If the City decides, and possibility of doing that sort of thing. Possibly when the that would be something the Airport Advisory Board new factories get built over in the Industrial Park, there would need to sell politically, because it is a significant would then...it's a subsidized bus, but you just can't take policy change for the City to get involved directly in it, and run it for the potential of having a customer on a business. Now, the City of Ruidoso runs the FBO, runs 40 passenger bus. And, everybody who comes here now, the Airport,runs the rental cars,and does everything. It's knows that there, not everybody, but 99% of the people not unknown to do that, but, I would suggest that if we who come to Las Cruces know there's no transportation are going to go that route, we should evaluate everything into town,and they have made arrangements with friends, that is offered on the airport,or needed on the airport,and neighbors, or family, or they have driven to the airport decide how we are going to offer an intergraded package and left their car here. This is not a destination airport, to support visitor and guests, as opposed to just picking this is a departure airport. People leave here, and go to rent-a-cars today,and next week it will be something else, Albuquerque, or some place else,and come back here. El and next month something else again. Paso is our arrival airport, if you will. I would suggest that before we jump into something, like the City should Hal Kading: You might check with Tucumcari,they have provide cars, which is a significant financial investment a City provided courtesy car. I don't know how they do on the part of the City, and would require a lot of work. it. Right now the City's budget process is complete, and it is a new concept, the City getting involved directly in SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 4 Ted Morris: Tucumcari has a...there are about 10 airports two cars out here, and then the people who come in, like in the state that have managers like I am, that are the transients, the guys who travel through, and so forth, employed directly by the city, or county employees. and then go to a certain hotel and sign in, pay, and then There is one airport in the state, Albuquerque, which has work out some kind of a financial deal, so that maybe the an airport authority, and they have hundreds of workers, others would share a little bit of that profit. We can be and they do all sorts of things. The rest of them, creative,maybe. including Tucumcari, are actually FBO operators. For example, Grant County does the same thing, Terry Bill Madden: We can't solve it today. Grimes is the contract employee for the county to run Grant County Airport, but he also runs Grimes Aviation, Gene Kennon: Right,I agree. he has rent-a-cars. If you walk up, and you really don't know what is going on, you think you are getting a Chuck McLean: I think the physical automobile isn't the county car. You're not, you're getting one from Grimes problem, I suspect. We have cop cars around here, they Aviation, although Terry appears to be a county sell for next to nothing. I don't think that is it. It's the employee,he is not,and that is the way it is in Tucumcari liability insurance. as well. Gene Kennon: Let's be thinking about it,okay? Hal Kading: I had been told the city provides the cars. Jim Boykin: What is this meeting that you have to go to Terry Sullivan: Will Enterprise come up here? that is more important than this one? Ted Morris: Yes, sir. Chuck McLean: There is only one that could be more important,I guess. We are going to go see the Mayor. Unknown: But then they take you back to their office. Jim Boykin: Oh, you do? Does it have to cut into this Chuck McLean: Yea,it's real complicated,Terry. meeting time? Teary Sullivan: Could we offer Enterprise an office space Chuck McLean: We thought that this would be over in an here? hour. It's the only time we can get in to see him. Ted Morris: We did. Avis, Advantage, Enterprise, and Jim Boykin: Oh, okay. Well, is there any other Hertz, and we mailed to every other national or regional unfmished business? Okay, new business. Do you want chain, they did not respond. Those four responded, and to speak about something? none of them what to locate on the airport. It's a drill we do every year. John Darden: Yes, sir, I'm John Darden, for those of you who don't know me, I'm with West Mesa Flying Unknown: (Unclear words.) Cutter has their own van. Association. On that list of businesses and stuff, we are a tenant of Hal's, and we are not listed. Is that the way you Bill Moody: They have two courtesy cars also. were listing tenants, businesses, and whatever? As a corporation,we are legally a business,but... Ted Morris: You need to talk with Mr. Kading, he's our FBO here for Southwest Aviation. Hal use to have Ted Morris: Are you registered as a corporation or courtesy cars,but,you found that... business? Hal Kading: We still do. John Darden: Well,not with you,I don't think so. Ted Morris: You do,still? Ted Morris: With the City,with the state,501C3? Chuck McLean: The yellow Buick,huh? John Darden: No,we're a not-for-profit organization. Gene Kennon: Maybe, it could be a joint effort on the Ted Morris: Okay. Non-profit flying clubs are kind of a part of all the motels, to have a car or two out here. unique beast. Right now there isn't anything about you. Whoever gets here, gets a special deal, maybe, to go to John Darden: We're subleasing from Hal. We're a tenant Holiday Inn or to the Hilton, or to one of the others, and of Hal, we have a little plastic card rented from you all maybe they could rotate it. I don't know, I'm just saying, that we got to enter our leasehold. maybe all the motels could go together and have maybe SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 5 Ted Morris: As a sublessee. license it, and about every quarter,whenever we wash the airplane, we will pull the tank out and back, and make it John Darden: What I am here for, and I appreciate it, I movable. Right now, I have no disagreement with the don't know where to get started. I want to thank Ted for Fire Marshal, that even under the federal rules, that since his suggestions to me about how to proceed. Terry we have cob webs under our wheels, and the cob webs Sullivan is the Secretary of our association, and I am the have been there for a few years, that our tank is hardly Vice President of the association, and we are representing movable. We can make it moveable. We would prefer to our board and members. We have 16 or 17 members stay where we are with renting from Hal, however, if in right now at West Mesa. You all might remember it as a fact an alternative acceptable to the Fire Marshal, and vital several plane club, we have one plane, we actually acceptable to the City,and to Codes,would be to move it, have two, but we are trying to sell the 150, we are going and lease essentially a dirt die-down or something from to be functioning as a 172 organization. We may the City,where we are at least approximate,where we can eventually, if we grow, expand ourselves. What we have, pull the airplane up and fuel it, we would like to do that. and what we use is a fuel cell, it's on wheels, admittedly With our current relationship, we are willing to move to right now, is not kosher out in the county. When we put an open tie-down. Right now the trailer is 12' by 7', so new tires on it, and pull it out and make it mobile, then it we need roughly 10' by 15', something like that,just to is legal out in the county. I am defining the words, out in allow for"Murphy's law" and stuff, to walk around, and the county,within the City's new fire code, it is no longer put our ladders up to install a few things. But, what we a legal fuel cell, even though it is legal elsewhere. What are asking, is for support from you to allow us to state we need to do,and what we are going to do to function as to...what we would end up having is, if you supported, a club,we use auto gas. And,right now Hal does not sell Ted will then be in a position of going back and working auto gas,and doesn't have the demand for the auto gas,to staff to staff with the Fire Marshal's staff, and see what accomplish things for him as a salesperson in auto gas we can do. As it stands,Terry has received a letter,which over at Southwest, is an expense that the sales volume I have not seen, from the Fire Marshal, saying they want doesn't justify for a limited amount of users. Currently, to send back, and talk with us. We note from Mr. Jones, the price of AV-Gas is easily about a buck more per the situation, that there ain't no talking can occur, and gallon than what we are paying. (Unclear words.) We from the situation that Hal has had, that there is no have received notification, Ted has received notification, conversation under the existing Fire Code that will allow from the Fire Marshall that we have to suspend all sales. our fuel cell to be there. We can't afford to make it meet We have in fact suspended all sales for ourselves,pending DOT requirements. Ted gave us some alternatives,which trying to resolve something. Our view of this whole we are perhaps trying to rent your tank right there, but, things is that our club is there for affordable flying, we we don't put enough volume through that, and we don't have a lot of folks who are on a budget. As a part of a have the people power in our club. We mostly have club,we can't afford maybe a lawyer, or maybe a suit. I retirees, we don't have the people power in our club to have 5 kids, two of them still in college, and I am on a monitor the billing that would go along with using your budget that my wife places me on, for flying. To charge tank. So,we are sitting back, as a small potato operation, another$7 or$8 an hour,which is what we would have to very small potato, with one airplane, so we request your do if we fly AV-Gas, will cause us to loose several of our blessings, so that we can sin no more, as far as the Fire members,who have already told us that. That is going to Marshal is concerned, and move forward. Is there cause the cost of flying to exceed, basically it's like a anything,Terry,you would like to add? black hole of inflowing, and when the inflows into the club dies, we will end up selling the airplane, and those Terry Sullivan: Basically,the fuel cell has been there for, who can afford to fly just like the people who own their I guess as long as the club has been here, and it is a case own airplanes, may stay on and fly. And for us, it is the where it failed the code for emergency shut off. It's just demise of the club, and so therefore, it is like taking a cat, one of those things that allows us to fly a lot cheaper. you chase a cat when your out in the open, but when you Auto gas is not really what everyone wants to use in an back them into their own den, and they have to stay back airplane,but,it works out okay for us. and fight, we're kind of back in our own den. We are committed that we are going to take this and fight, but Chuck McLean: Mr. Chair, I think we can short cut this fight is not what you all...we're here to ask your support. with a good search through the files, because I made a I have already talked to the Manager, as a result of the motion four months ago when you first talked to the Fire conversation I've had with Ted, the first step in any kind Marshal,six months ago. of situation is to get the blessing of this Board, that the Ted Morris: A year ago,Chuck. Board would endorse or support, or not object to us having a tank that is moveable. That means that we will Chuck McLean: A year ago, okay, time flies, that we attempt to take it out,put new tires on it,take it down and encourage the not-for-profits to get people to enter SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 6 aviation, no matter how you can get them, and that is one fuel cells, going to the City about seeking relief from the of the ways you can get them to enter aviation, and that Fire Code. we were prepared to support you, and also, I think to the extent of providing you rent free a place to park it off the Ted Morris: I would suggest, that if you are going to do ramp, if you have to. That is in our records, some place, that, that you have an alternative code that you are going so I guess our answer is, yes, and it is already in the to refer too. Whether it be that the fuel is stored and books,unless you want me to restate it. dispensed in accordance with the Advisory Circulars the FAA publishes,or the Fire Code of 1988, instead of 1994, Ted Morris: If I may, I don't think the Airport Advisory or whatever. Board actually came to that resolution. I think that your feelings were stated,but I don't believe... Jim Boykin: Can't you just do this by the "Grandfather Clause"? It has been going on for(unclear words)years. Chuck McLean: I voted on the bottom of something (unclear words). Ted Morris: No,sir. Ted Morris: Yea, but I don't believe the entire Airport Jim Boykin: Why not? Advisory Board...I would just like to say, just so that there is no mistaking what we are talking about here, the Ted Morris: Because the City Council voted to give all FAA guarantees a legal person the right to service, and those above ground tanks six months to come into certain refuel their own aircraft, provided they meet all the rules compliance, and 5 years in which they have to be and regulations that would exist concerning that service removed. or refueling. You know, you have to have an A&P mechanic work on your airplane, unless it is an Jim Boykin: Well, this gets to be a personal thing with experimental home built, so on, and so forth. The City of me, because I know a lot of Mom and Pop operations all Las Cruces,of course,has the right to establish any rule it over this state that have been closed down, because you wants for its airport, and it has elected to adopt the Fire can't buy gas between Las Cruces and, well you can Code, and the Fire Code would make, in fact it made all between Las Cruces and Silver City, but, you can't buy existing above ground tanks on the airport that service any gas from Silver City all the way to Reserve now. I people, including theirs, Hal's, and Mesilla Valley guess you can get some in Glenwood, and all of those Aviation's, made them illegal, and there were about 65 places have been closed down, and the reason, I've said tanks in town that were not in compliance. Forty-two of this before in this place,the reason they have been closed them were shut down, including Hal's, so far, and the rest down is because those tanks might leak, and they might were modified, including Mesilla Valley Aviation's. The mess up the water table, and the science behind that has Fire Marshal, I've had a lot of talks with him, and he is not been proven, and has been disproved in several cases saying that he doesn't think that they should make an out here even,because people have spilled pesticides over exception. I am very sympathetic to what Mr. Darden is there, and they ran the guy off from the airport, (missing talking about, and I think we can find a place to put his words). But, I really think it would be to our advantage tank, if having it underneath the sunshade doesn't work, to try and promote private aviation in Las Cruces, to try or something. I would not do it rent free at all. and support this attempt to talk to the City Commission, and try to get some reversal on this particular case, and John Darden: We don't mind paying. get the Fire Code modified, or particular waiver type situations,which I'm sure can be accomplished. Ted Morris: Right. However, the rule is that they can't operate that tank, Hal can't operate his tank, in Chuck McLean: So moved. accordance with the Fire Code, and I'm tasked with enforcing the laws, verbatim as they are written, but I am Bill Madden: Did I hear something wrong, or is it all sympathetic to everyone with this problem. you've got to do is get a decent set of wheels under that thing,and it is legal? Jim Boykin: What would you like to have from us, a motion that says we would like to support aviation, in any John Darden: Yes,sir,in the County,not in the City. fashion that Chuck as more or less stated? If you would state that in the form of a motion,Chuck. Jim Boykin: So, if you got wheels under there, you still couldn't operate here, you would have to go to Santa John Darden: Perhaps agree that the above ground fuel Teresa. cells, that you do support the organizations above ground SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 7 John Darden: We could move it to Santa Teresa, or I Jim Boykin: Well,I don't know that I'm speaking for the could go to Stahmann,assuming we wanted to do that,we Board, but, for myself, I would like to promote private could have that fuel cell as a mobile fuel operation,just aviation every way we possibly could, and I think that's like farmers do with there fuel tanks, and we could move our duty to advise the City in that manner. So, if we it to either one of those two airports, and they're not could come up with some kind of a presentation, within what we will do. We will probably either die,or.. whatever the wordage or verbiage may be,whether it is to say,would like to operate under the County's Code,or we Chuck McLean: So, then we could recommend the would like a waiver under this particular situation. ultimate code we want to do it under is the County Code, right? John Darden: Or perhaps, you could ask for a waiver under this situation, and then allow staff and us to work Ted Morris: That would be my recommendation, is that toward developing... when you make this motion, if your going to make this motion,that it be tied to some technical standard, because Chuck McLean: Should I make a motion? if you don't, the Fire Marshal is going to say, he has already said that the Fire Code, is the Fire Code, is the Ted Morris: Mr. Chairman, if I may point out something Fire Code. else to the Board that should be considered. I know that Mr. Kading is waiting for the result of this particular Bill Madden: The other thing is too, if it is not under issue, to decide what he is going to do about his tank. some standard, and you do have a problem, and burn up Mesilla Valley Aviation has invested thousands of dollars an airplane, the insurance will probably say, sorry, the in the upgrade of their tank, and I'm certain, and I would equipment was not up to code. anticipate that they would request reimbursement, or redress, since they met a code, and now someone would Jim Boykin: Well, that's why I think we should pursue not. This is not a really clear cut issue, but, it is a policy some kind of a waiver, or some kind of a issue. recommendation to another code, or some thing like Ted suggests,that if we have to go to some technical detail at Jim Boykin: It is as far as I'm concerned, that the over- this time,then it would seem to me that would be the way riding concern is to continue to provide as much private to go. aviation in the area as possible, which I think is our particular requirement as an advisory board for the John Darden: We could say, subject to (unclear purposes of aviation here. The rest of this stuff, as far as words)...following Ted's suggestion about applying with I'm concerned, is a bunch of boiler plate, and if all the appropriate Advisory Circulars from the FAA, and somebody wants to fight about it, they possibly might the pre-existing fire code. You don't want that,Ted? win, because mostly it seems like lately they do. But, I don't really feel like we should do anything,except do the Ted Morris: No, no, no. I honestly don't care what the best we can to support private aviation. ruling is, or what technical standard, or code that is chosen. Chuck McLean: I think we just inject the word, in our preamble,or whatever our motion is going to be,that not- John Darden: Just say, prior to the fire code that existed for-profit, will take care of part of it, because the other is (unclear words). a commercial operation. Ted Morris: I think that somebody, and I don't want to Ted Morris: Yes. do it myself, I don't want to do it, but I think that somebody needs to actually research, because I believe Chuck McLean: So, that is two issues, so we don't get your tank was illegal under the 1988 Fire Code, as well. them swept into our issue. That's what I've heard from Mr. Zubia. Now,what I am saying is somebody needs to research technical details. Gene Kennon: Isn't there some way we could word this, so that it would be tied to the volume of fuel used each John Darden: Under the federal rules, the federal month? Because I doubt if you guys use that much. requirements for fuel cells, the only requirement, and we Comparably it's nothing, so I think all of this would play meet the requirements for a movable cell as long as we into the non-profit, and volume, and if I understand it are movable. We are movable,and so we don't...and then now,the county has a code that would make you legal. there is static requirements which we do not meet, and we have to make that movable,we just have to address that. John Darden: The county has a lower code (unclear words). SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 8 Jim Boykin: Are you saying that experimental aircraft Ted Morris: Yes,sir. are not bond by this? Charles Trego: For municipalities. Chuck McLean: Oh, no, no. My point was that we are worried about a commercial operator who had to come Ted Morris: That's correct. into compliance, we just limit our recommendation to the people who are making the petition, that they are a not- Jim Boykin: Well, is it the City's prerogative to do this, for-profit organization. That as a not-for-profit or not? organization, we support their petition, and we recommend the City attempt to address it along the line of Ted Morris: Yes. adopting the County Code for them. John Darden: It's basically very similar to some of the Jim Boykin: Well, I would like to add something in planning things they have done, done not necessarily there,because it is our interest to promote private aviation here,but in other cities,that they just say, well, this is an in this area. established norm, and we are going to take it even though it is not applicable necessarily to Las Cruces (unclear Chuck McLean: The preamble? words), and with all the best motives, that it doesn't necessarily fit us. John Darden: Technically, I could go down to Love's Truck Stop with a 5 gallon gas can, and buy gas, and fill Ted Morris: If I can just give you an observation. I was up the airplane. at the meeting where the City Council adopted the Fire Code. They had had public meetings, they had talked Bill Madden: As long as you only brought up one at a with people, they have done a lot of preparation prior to time. this. At that meeting, no one stepped forward from the public to protest the new Fire Code, and there was only Bill Moody: Well,you can do that right now,with all the one letter sent directly to the City Council, and that was fire codes,and everything. from Dale Jones, protesting the fact that his vehicle was neither a fixed tank, nor a motor vehicle, and therefore Ted Morris: And,by the way, I would not like to see that could not be regulated. They just kind of read his letter, occur on the airport. I think that would probably be the and Zubia stood up and said, well, yes, it can be most dangerous way of refueling airplanes. regulated, and they said, okay, fine, and passed the law. So,there was no one there to actually discuss this issue in Unknown: But,that is legal. front of the City Council. But, it was more than a year ago that this occurred. Ted Morris: Yes,sir. Jim Boykin: To address the problem of Dale Jone's outfit Jim Boykin: Discussion? Any more discussion? having put money into coming up to code, and so forth, I don't see why he would be objectionable to somebody Hal Kading: I would like to see it expanded to for-profit, who is not going to do any more than two or three jerry because we need to be able to sell auto fuel at a cans worth of gasoline a week, or something like that, reasonable price too. being waived on something like this. Jim Boykin: Where does this fire code come from Chuck McLean: That precludes my saying to make this anyway? Is there anything we can do about that? motion exclusively to a not-for-profit. Then, if Mr. Kading wants us to support something for him, I think we Ted Morris: The City Council adopted it,sir. better make it a separate motion, so that they can split all this out. Jim Boykin: Yea, but they adopted it based on what? Is this the latest EPA standard, or is this something Vernon Wilson: May I ask a question,please? Is the fuel somebody wrote up here,or is it? tanks that Dale Jones operates owned by the hangar,or by the club? Ted Morris: No, it's the national fire code. It's a standard book about that thick. Ted Morris: I have no idea. Jim Boykin: So the City adopted a national fire code? Vernon Wilson: Well, because if it is owned by the hangar, they are bond by one set of rules, and they can SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 9 sell for profit. If it belongs to the club,they can not sell at Jim Boykin: Is there any other discussion on that one? all. Let's have a vote then. All in favor? Ted Morris: That would be correct. No, they can't sell Members: Aye. fuel out of that tank to anybody, except club members, and refuel club airplanes. Jim Boykin: Any opposed? Vernon Wilson: If it is owned by the building, then I Motion carried with all members voting,aye. would think that...(unclear words). John Darden: I sure appreciate your time,thank you. Ted Morris: If they are refueling, and you would like to make that report, then I will have Codes Enforcement Gene Kennon: What kind of tires are you going to have research that. on it? Vernon Wilson: No, I'm not making a report, I'm just John Darden: Well,ones that work. saying that there is a distinction on who owns it. Charles Trego: Round, where the rubber hits the road, Ted Morris: There is no distinction. They are authorized and full of air. to conduct commercial activities under a business license, but not to include selling fuel. If they are selling fuel to Jim Boykin: Now,that that one is taken care of, let's see the general public, they are in violation of their lease if we can help Hal out. What can we do for Hal at this terms, and the law. And, if I find out about it,then I will point? call Codes Enforcement,and ask them to research it. Chuck McLean: It sounds to me like we just word it the Chuck McLean: And their club is a for-profit club,also. same way,and take the not-for-profit out of there. Ted Morris: Yes. Jim Boykin: I guess. Well,we would still like to support aviation,and there are a lot of people who burn gas. Chuck McLean: I know they are not the same as the West Mesa Flying Club. Chuck McLean: That's what I'm saying, it would be almost the same motion,with a couple of words left out. Jim Boykin: Well, how are we going to frame this motion? You started it,Chuck. Bill Madden: But, is the problem with that tank, the Fire Code,or location? Chuck McLean: Mine is on the table, and it excludes Mr. Kading. Ted Morris: I know Hal and I have not had a chance to look this over carefully, but, I believe with the new Jim Boykin: Say it again, so Susan can get what you've airport layout plan, that, that tank is going to have to be got. moved, because it falls within the safety area of Runway 26, now. I know Hal said, well, he thinks it should be Chuck McLean: In our continuing endeavors to support grandfathered, and I don't know what the correct answer general aviation growth, we wish to support the West is. I haven't had time to call the Safety and Standards Mesa Flying Club in its petition to continue fueling from Branch to find out. their existing fuel vehicle, whatever it is, once it is brought up to date, and we recommend the City support Bill Madden: Where could you move it that you can still this move, or this arrangement under the Dona Ana taxi up to it? It may be something you have to study a bit. County Codes,regarding such refueling. John Darden: Once it is made mobile,that is the key. Jim Boykin: Do we need to research this before we make this motion? Chuck McLean: That's, that one. Then we already discussed it. Now,Hal would be a different one. Hal Kading: The Fire Code problem is, we need breakaway couplings, we need guard posts, it needs a Jim Boykin: Well,can we have a second to that one? berm around it, and retaining ponding area. By the time you do all of that, it's not worth the effort. Gene Kennon: I would second that. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 10 Bill Madden: I would like to see car gas on the field, because I need it for one bird. Charles Trego: Oh,yea. Jim Boykin: Well,what happens if we don't have car gas Jim Boykin: There was one on a little ranch my wife and on the field? Does that mean people bring their own in a her brother own that they sold, and now they can't sell 5 gallon can, like some of them do? gas on it. They can't afford the $35,000 to $40,000 since they got the tank to make sure it is clean. And the thing Hal Kading: Some of them bring their own. that is so ridiculous down there,is it is sitting on top of oil shale, so if it leaked, why, they would pump it out of the Chuck McLean: Some transients go other places. ground over at Midland in about 400 years. So,the whole thing is utterly ludicrous, but it is a generalized rule, and Bill Moody: To put all of this in a nut shell, what's must be enforced by somebody, who's job it is to enforce happening, either this Board, the staff, or City Council is it. very remiss in helping to do what you just stated you want to do, is to help promote aviation. The actions that Ted Morris: When they drilled for water here on the have been taken in the last 6, to 8, to 10 months, is airport, over in the old trailer park area, they hit water at reducing that,and it's just going out the door. Now Hal is 1,120 feet, and it came out at 5 gallons a minute, and was the one that is going to suffer, because I know of three 180 degrees, and we had to do all that stuff for Hal's operators that are going to start tankering fuel, not underground tanks. They made us pull them out of the because of Hal, but because of the actions on this airport. ground, and we had to spend $8,000 to upgrade this one Now, I think this all goes together with what they are out front to leave it in, and there is no ground water for doing, they are shutting down businesses that promote 1,000 feet below us. By the time, fuel gets...however, aviation, that have...just every little bit helps, with no unfortunately, and I appreciate Bill's comments, but more activity then you have here,every little bit helps. unfortunately, Bill, and Bill, and everybody else, my job is to enforce the law as it is written. Jim Boykin: This is not just limited to the Fire Code, I gather? Bill Moody: I know it is on the books,I understand that. Bill Moody: No, it is not. And, who brought the Fire Ted Morris: Not to interpret it, okay? I just want Code up? Did Council do it,or did staff do it? everybody to understand my position in this whole thing. Jim Boykin: Well, these people have a requirement to Bill Moody: Well, my question to you Ted is this, is it live up to regulations,and they didn't have any choice. you enforcing it,or is it by request of the Council? Bill Moody: I understand that. Ted Morris: Which,sir? Charles Trego: The Fire Department brought it up. Bill Moody: To enforce all the rules. Ted Morris: It's the Fire Department's Code. Ted Morris: That's my job. That is my job description. Charles Trego: They came out, and inspected it. I don't Bill Moody: It's always been that way, is what I am think you can over-ride... saying. Chuck McLean: It is not exclusive to the City,I mean the Ted Morris: I don't know what it was when Medley was airport, it's all over the town. Did somebody say 77 here. tanks... Bill Moody: Well,it was still in the job description,then. Charles Trego: Oh, I'm sure,this is ongoing. I know the City has engineering problems. Ted Morris: I don't know. Jim Boykin: It's a nation wide thing. Bill Moody: The rules were on the books then. Charles Trego: Yea,this is nothing new. Charles Trego: What's your point? Jim Boykin: It has to do with a lot of Mom and Pop Bill Moody: All I'm trying to say is, all the rules are places that are no longer there. being enforced with no leeway. _A SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 11 Ted Morris: No, sir. As a matter of fact, all the rules are not being enforced. There are several rules, for example, Jim Boykin: Everybody doesn't know it. I don't know anything about the jerry can rule. If you would like me to look it up in the Fire Code, I will be Ted Morris: Well Jim, I'll tell you what. Let me cut this more than happy too. Somebody raised the issue about if I could... whether or not they could drive back and forth in front of the passenger terminal, and I looked it up, and found out Jim Boykin: Everybody doesn't know it because the that in fact no one can. Okay? Except for people people,the guy that you are mad at right now, I can see it necessary for airport operations. Now, I will look up any in your eyes, doesn't know the combination, and doesn't rule, and if you would like me to continue to look up want to know the combination. He just would like to rules,I will. know what he's suppose to do, and apparently you and him can not talk together without getting mad at each Bill Moody: No, I'm not doing that, I'm just going to sit other. And I've had a lot of discussions with him about back,I've said my piece. this. I do not understand this kind of stuff, because you are both grown people, and I've told him that and now I Jim Boykin: That brings up something else, because like am telling you that. What the hell is going on with you I've said in here before, and Bill he just brings it out, the guys? What is this? Can't you calm this thing? Why natives on this field are very restless,and getting more so. can't you call a man up and ask him what's the matter? Is I walk around with my collar turned around and they talk that beneath you? to Father James, and a lot of the natives are very restless and unhappy, and they have some questions and here is Susan Pfeiffer: Am I allowed to say anything? one of them: Suppose I come in here after working hours and I want to get off the field with my car, which I have Ted Morris: No. driven on the field legally or illegally, and I can't get out because the gate is locked? What will I do? Suppose I Jim Boykin: Go ahead, I would like to hear what you come out here after working hours and I have to go fly have to say. somebody some place in an air ambulance and I can't get in? What will I do? In this particular case someone Ted Morris: No Susan. This is not your meeting,you are called the Mayor. The Mayor called somebody who not a member of the general public. Sir, if you would like called somebody... to discuss all of this, we can do so with any number of people. If this Board... Ted Morris: Sir, let me ask you a question about that particular one, `somebody needs to come out to fly an air Charles Trego: I would like to have this kind of ambulance mission.' They can't park on the street and discussion among Board members. walk through the hangar? Do they need to get their vehicle onto the flightline,is that what you are stating? Jim Boykin: Well, I would like to know what the answer to this thing is? Never mind the particular incident. What Jim Boykin: Well,how do they get through the hangar if do you do if you come out here and you want to go they don't have a key to the hangar? somewhere and you want to leave at 3:00 in the morning and you can't get it? What do you do? Ted Morris: If they're the chief pilot of that air ambulance service, I would assume that they would have Ted Morris: Sir, that has never been a problem since a key or means of access, and that the rest of the flight December of 1995 until this last week. crew would be there,and so on and so forth. Jim Boykin: But Ted, these people have airplanes out Jim Boykin: How do they get somebody who is sick in here, they have places to go, they have businesses to an ambulance through a locked gate? satisfy,they have appointments they are suppose to meet, and they come out here after you leave and the gates are Ted Morris: Sir, the gate at that end of the field, the locked,how do they get in? combination on the gate has not changed since I was hired in December 1995. Ted Morris: They enter through the gates as they have done for years. Jim Boykin: Who knows the combination? Jim Boykin: But they can't any more because the gates Ted Morris: Emergicare Ambulance,everybody. are locked. Everybody on the field knows it. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 12 Ted Morris: Which gate? Bill Madden: Okay, but the explanation and the use of that east gate was on that letter. Apparently it went to the Jim Boykin: Any of them. corporate headquarters, it sounds like we are a big outfit. I do not remember seeing it. It may not have gotten sent Ted Morris: All of them are locked. All of them have out. I know I did not send out letters to our five always been locked. There is only one gate that the members, four members plus me. And I probably would combination has changed, and that is the one at the west not have anyway because I assumed that we all knew it. end that was broken and vandalized to the point where it's Apparently we have one individual in our bunch that has not repairable. It was left open for two weeks in a row. I never used that gate, and has always gone down and in went to Mr.Kading and I went to Mr.Lee and I said,"We the back side. So it is possibly our fault that this one need to control this gate. It is a danger to all airport users individual did not know that combination. to have this gate open at all hours of the day or night." So I gave everyone an opportunity to put their own lock in Jim Boykin: Well, I'm not speaking as a Board series on that gate. Mr. Lee elected to do so, and later on Chairman, as a Board member or anything else, I'm just Mr. Jones elected to do so. Mr. Kading elected to allow speaking as somebody who walks around and people talk his sub-tenants to enter through his gate next to his main to me. hanger at the FBO. I sent a letter to Mr. Kading, and I sent a letter to Mesilla Valley Aviation, stating if they had Ted Morris: Let me ask you a question now. Are we sub-tenants or customers that had a frequency of use that talking about Bert Zwaagstra or are we talking about needed to get in that gate, that they were welcome to put Waide Noel? in a lock. They just needed to come to see me so we knew what was going on. Okay? No one, Jim, has done Jim Boykin: Well, we are talking about at least those that. A lot of people have gone directly to the Mayor and two,and three or four others. City Council, and the City Manager, and complained that I am denying them access to the airport, but no one has Ted Morris: Okay, with Bert Zwaagstra, he called me come to me and asked to put a lock in. and claimed he was locked on the airport at 3:30 in the afternoon on a Sunday. He didn't claim to me that he was Charles Trego: Now I'm going to say something,because locked on the airport,he claimed to me that he was unable really this is not where Board members need to get to get onto the airport at 5:30 on Saturday morning, and involved in. I think personally in this particular case, he called me at home at 3:30 on Sunday afternoon. Now, knowing nothing of what you two gentlemen are sitting when he called Mr. Ericson, he claimed to Mr. Ericson here raving to yourselves over, I mean the specifics, that that he was locked on the airport and that if he didn't I'm sitting here thinking, he is the Airport Manager. He believe it he could ask Hal Kading who was standing is the person anybody that has a question about the right next to him while he made the phone call to me. operation of this airport should be going to. Period. In Now if he is standing next to Hal, Hal can let him out my book,just as a person sitting on the Board, sitting here through his gate, Hal's gate is rarely locked. The gate thinking that is why this gentleman has been hired, that is down at the west end is not locked during the day. The what his job is to be. So if there is some gates at the east end, all the combinations are the same. miscommunication going on here, I take it from you Ted, This is not an issue of whether someone was locked out you have made talks to this other gentleman that he is or locked in. This is something a lot different than that referring to,who ever this individual is? I'm just asking a Jim,and you know it. simple question. Jim Boykin: The issue which I'm trying to establish, and Ted Morris: Who are we ... I'm not doing very good at it obviously, is that somehow nobody knows this. Every time it comes up it's a new Bill Madden: Let me throw something in here because I thing to the next guy who makes the next phone call, and may know where one of the miscommunications may I've heard from five or six of them now,and every time it have come in, if this is an individual that belongs to comes up you say that I've made all these things, and I WAM group. A letter was apparently sent out explaining am not saying you have not. All I'm saying is put the use of the gate and I guess the combination on it, I yourself in my position. I walked in and somebody don't know. pounces on me and says your a bad dirty Airport Board. Ted Morris: The combination has never changed since I Ted Morris: If I can point out to you sir, on January 16th have been here, and no, the combination was not on that we sent a copy of the rules and regulations to every list. address that we had. We used Hal's master list for his sub-tenants, and we sent one to every lessee that we knew SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 13 of or every user of the airport, after this Board agreed to Standards Branch in Fort Worth, which is our inspector, the rules. Okay, on February 5th I sent another letter out and we have to follow this regulation which requires us to specifically to the east end residents because that gate establish these, which are Airport Certification down there was left open all the time, and pointed out Specifications, which state all the rules that for example how dangerous that is with the cattle getting in and all the with ground vehicles, let me read you what the FAR rest of that sort of thing. I reported these things to this requires: "Each certificate holder, meaning the City of Board. I have sent letters to everyone that we had an Las Cruces, shall limit access to the movement areas and address for. Now I did not send one to Mr. Zwaagstra, safety areas only to those ground vehicles necessary for because Mr. Zwaagstra, I did not have his address or airport operations." Now, the question is, is a vehicle phone number or anything else,but I did send it to WAM, necessary for airport operations to get out there and mix it and I sent it to Wallace Westwind. If they didn't send it up with aircraft? or give it to you Bill [Moody],that's the lessee, and I sent it to all these people and gave them the rules. The rules in Jim Boykin: What legal requirement is this thing? What the case of what Mr.Noel is complaining about is that he legal standing does this particular regulation have at an can't drive across the ramp out here any more, and uncontrolled airport? proceed from one end of the airfield to the other using the ramp as a road. The rules state that you have to have the Ted Morris: Sir, you are confusing Part 91 and the Airport Manager's permission to do that. That was a nice AIM... way that we were trying to figure out how to grant permission to people who are essential on the airport. Jim Boykin: No, I'm not confusing anything Ted. What FAR Part 139 specifically states, if I may read it into the I want to know is how do you enforce this when you are record here: "Ground vehicles 139.329 (and this is what not here 24 hours a day. governs ground operations and operations of the airport)." Ted Morris: Sir,that is not the point. Jim Boykin: At a controlled airport? Charles Trego: That is not the point, the law is the law. Ted Morris: No Sir. Our airport has an operating Just because you don't have a policeman down on the certificate under FAR Part 139. corner,you don't go and commit a crime. Jim Boykin: Are you sure this isn't just a controlled Jim Boykin: The people who were walking down the airport? runway were Hal and his wife and a dog. Ted Morris: Sir, uncontrolled means no tower. This Ted Morris: That is true,and his guests. airport is ruled by that regulation, and I will read it to you. Charles Trego: I don't care if it is the President walking his dog. Jim Boykin: Who enforces that regulation? Jim Boykin: They have been walking down that runway Ted Morris: That's what I'm going to read to you, the for 25 years and they got called on the carpet because of Safety and Standards Branch out of Fort Worth. In fact, this sort of spurious regulation that nobody even knew if I could read the results of the last inspection, let's see if about. I can find what I am looking for here. "Airport Rules- It was alarming to find an airport tenant and three other Ted Morris: Sir,this is not a spurious regulation. This is persons with a dog strolling along Runway 4-22 at night. binding upon the City of Las Cruces,period, it's the law. We support the Airport Manager's efforts to stop these acts being done in disregard of airport rules and common Chuck McLean: You now know the subject of our sense. We are confident that the City of Las Cruces meeting this afternoon with the Mayor, and I get a kick recognizes its responsibility to protect aircraft operators out of the farm people around here, I guess us guys back against such practices, as a pilot's sudden realization that East all have great ideas we think apply. An uncontrolled pedestrians are on the runway can cause a number of airfield is an airfield without a control tower. (Portion unpredictable results. Other flagrant acts such as a pilot missing while change tapes.) ...it was there when I was an landing on a taxiway should not be condoned by the City, Airport Manager, at least guys I didn't even know came and if necessary airport regulations should be in the form on the airfield and said you can't have a gate that is open, of a City Ordinance if a small number of tenants refuse to with a sign saying on it "Federal Property you're not adhere." This is from Mr. Robert Hutchins, the Airport allowed in here". That's called some find of permissive Safety Program Manager, from the Airport Safety and approval. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 14 Jim Boykin: Okay. Jim Boykin: No, he's not making any exceptions to this what-so-ever. Chuck McLean: The City is responsible for what happens on this airfield. Charles Trego: Then what is the statement about earlier, that you said there were allowances? Charles Trego: So we are a controlled airport then? Ted Morris: What it says is that no one can enter the Ted Morris: No, a controlled airport only applies to movement areas unless they are required for airport whether there is a tower. operations. So for example, if someone comes to me and says I need to go from point A to point B in order to Charles Trego: That's the only thing? conduct airport operations, and we sit down and talk about it, and I say "Okay". Now if he disagrees with Ted Morris: Yes,that's the only thing. what I say, he can go to my boss and ask that same question. Charles Trego: Thank you. Jim Boykin: Ted,why is it necessary that he has to go up Jim Boykin: Well how does that drag the local "gents the chain of command, and you're a military man again, d'armes"into this? why can't he come and talk to you in a nice friendly manner and have a cup of coffee, and get along with Ted Morris: Sir,the City of Las Cruces owns the airport. people? Are you the only one who can rule on all of The City of Las Cruces has elected to certify the airport in these things, and the only one that it seems to me...that accordance with FAR Part 139, and therefore, Part 139 is the natives are restless, and the reason they're restless is the law on this airport. But, the City of Las Cruces because of you. Because they are afraid of you, you are always has the right to establish any rule or regulation it intimidating them, they feel like they can not talk to you, wants for its airport,just as Mr. Stahmann has that right to you come down on them too hard, they jump up and do anything he wants on his airport. down and go around, and they go some place else, and they go down to Bill Moody's airport in Santa Teresa and Jim Boykin: Okay, so your going to keep driving people they feel free down there, like they use to here. Now off here, and the little people are going to keep leaving, what has happened? Is there not some way we can and so I have been remiss, and I should be put in jail resolve this without having to have an appeal in a court because for many, many times out here I have given like legal operation on every single little thing? people okays to go ahead and land on taxiways, because these particular taxiways are not as big or just a little bit Charles Trego: Yea, there is. That's what this whole bigger than the runways at Hatch. It is an Instructor's process has been for the past year, the best I can tell as a requirement to give every student he has enough Board member. information about what goes on so that if he runs into something, he won't kill himself. Now, is that more Jim Boykin: But it has not worked. important than what is written in that little regulation there? Charles Trego: But nothing has been finished yet,we are still evolving through this process as best I can tell. Charles Trego: But isn't that a special use thing for a student? Aren't you trying to take a particular individual Jim Boykin: You should be where you are. Your on the and teach him something about the airport? outside,you don't talk to all these people. I'm telling you they're hot! Jim Boykin: That's exactly right. Charles Trego: I'm sure,but the point of this thing... Charles Trego: I think that's allowable up to... Jim Boykin: They are hot at you. Jim Boykin: But it's not according to... Ted Morris: Sir, if you care after the meeting or any time Charles Trego: No, no, no. Didn't we just say that we you like, we will listen to the recordings of their phone wrote it in, in such a way that allowed you to make calls and their visits to me, and you will see that I am not exceptions? the aggressor. You will see it very clearly. Ted Morris: No. Jim Boykin: I don't care who is the aggressor. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 15 Ted Morris: But you're saying that I am. Bill Moody: It was copied to Director of Special Services Las Cruces Police Department,Captain Phil George. Jim Boykin: The thing is,when you come into a situation like this, you get a set of tools to do a job, and they're Ted Morris: Yes,sir. very rarely new tools. They are usually kind of rusty and they are pitted,and some of them are... Jim Boykin: Well that is nearly tantamount to intimidation to me. Ted Morris: Sir,let me ask a question. Bill Moody: Anyway Ted,the second thing. When I got Jim Boykin: You have got to deal with the people that this letter I came in and talked to Ted, and we had a are there. peaceful conversation. I told him I was disappointed that I found out about the rules this way. Ted Morris: Let me ask a question. Which rules do you object to? I've asked the other people which rule is it that Charles Trego: But,okay,that's the end of it. they object to, and that would be my request to you. Which rule is it that you object to, which set of rules Bill Moody: I approached him and told him what my would you like us to not incorporate? requirements were for maybe once or twice a week driving down the ramp, and it is a company requirement Jim Boykin: I am a follower of rules. I do not object to that we have with Hal, and Hal knows what I am talking any rules. I object to the attitude and the approach! about. I have to sign fuel tickets whenever I buy fuel. He There has to be some way of doing this without killing indicated that he did not have a problem about that. Then everybody, and everybody being mad all the time. You I get a letter from him that says"No dice." get tired of dealing with people that are always on the ceiling. Ted Morris: No sir, that isn't what it says. Would you like to read it to them? Bill Moody: I have two things to say. Number one, the rules and regulations have been on the books for years, Bill Moody: I definitely would. You want me now to they have always been there. I think it was the provide you a letter in writing requesting that permission. implementation, the enforcement of these rules that had never been enforced previously, and being hit with them Ted Morris: Yes,sir. all at once is kind of a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of operators and a lot of people here. The other thing, and I Bill Moody: Well I refuse to do so. You're not going to told Ted that I think he could temper it a little bit. The say"No"to me again. way I found out about the rules was a registered letter with a police report on it. I'm a criminal,anyway. Ted Morris: Okay. Ted Morris: No sir, that is not correct. I would like to Bill Moody: In the meantime. read that into here,that is not correct. That letter was sent to the Director of Special Services of the Police Charles Trego: Wait, I'm missing something. May I see Department,who is our liaison should there be a violation it? of the rules. Ted Morris: May I state that my supervisor has asked me Bill Moody: Then I was in violation, I was driving down to backup everything in writing, that's all. And the letter the ramp. that I sent back to you, as I remember Mr. Moody,just asks that you... Ted Morris: No sir. The Police Department has requested that anything that concerns rules, that we just Bill Moody: Do it in writing. include them as a copied. There is no punishment involved with this I don't believe. Ted Morris: Yes,sir. Bill Moody: No. Bill Moody: Well I don't intend to Ted. Ted Morris: Then it was not a police report. You can Ted Morris: Okay. read it. Bill Moody: I'll just not buy fuel here any more. Now that is not Hal's doing, I've enjoyed the services I've got from him,and it has been good service. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 16 Jim Boykin: Well you see, so there we are killing people Ted Morris: Well,that would be fine, sir. again. Jim Boykin: Who is asking you to do this? Ted Morris: I would like to read what I wrote to him: "Thank you for responding so quickly to my letter of Ted Morris: Mr. Ericson and the City Manager. Now if August 18th. I agree that you probably have a valid you guys would like to,fine go ahead. reason for transiting the aircraft apron in your private vehicle for points on the airfield. However, I would like Charles Trego: This is an issue all to itself. to make sure we are in full agreement on what is Martin Ditmore: If you ask me, you guys are going after permissible. Would you please send a written request the wrong guy. with your requirements. I look forward to working with you to assure efficient and safe operations at the airport." Jim Boykin: That's untenable. Now if you choose not to accept that letter Bill, I don't know what to tell you. Ted Morris: You really have to have been harassed, and threatened, and badgered, and yelled at, and then, that Jim Boykin: Why is it so important that he submit a individual writes a letter to the City Manager or to the written request? Mayor and states that I did that to them, to understand Ted Morris: Because my boss,Jim Ericson,has asked me why I have to record these conversations. to backup all these conversations and all these requests in Jim Boykin: Who are we talking about now? writing. Ted Morris: Mr.Larry Downum,Mr.Waide Noel,okay? Jim Boykin: Well where does this leave us the Airport Board trying to promote aviation in this area? Jim Boykin: Waide didn't write any letter to the City Manager. Ted Morris: What is the rule you would like us to not enforce? Ted Morris: No. I'm telling you who has been yelling at me. Okay? Jim Boykin: Again, I do not understand the legalistic approach to this thing. Can't there be some decency in Jim Boykin: Well you just said who wrote a letter. this? Ted Morris: Mr. Noel has gone direct to the Mayor and Ted Morris: I thought that Bill's conversation with me complained in person. went very well. I recorded it,we can replay it. Jim Boykin: No he hasn't. Bill Moody: Whoa, whoa, whoa. You recorded our conversation? Ted Morris: I beg to differ with you Sir. Ted Morris: Yes sir I certainly did. Charles Trego: Well let me get back to where we were at. When you left, you had a verbal understanding of what Bill Moody: Then the next time you do it, you let me was going to be allowed. know you're doing it. (Unclear words by several people talking at the same Ted Morris: In the state of New Mexico sir, that is not a time.) requirement. I'll tell everybody right now that I have been directed to record every conversation of this nature. Charles Trego: The difference between this and what he is being asked to do, our Airport Manager is being asked Bill Moody: You advise people that you are talking to to record this on paper, this protects both parties. You that you are doing it. understand that this may be a pain in the butt to write the letter, but all be it, it protects you as well as the airport Ted Morris: No sir,that is not a requirement in the State because it defines exactly what you are going to be doing. of New Mexico. Bill Moody: (Unclear words.) I'll not transgress the Bill Moody: It is so. airport property at all,no more than what I have to,which Ted Morris: No it isn't. is legal for me to do now. Bill Moody: Well,I'll prove it to you. Charles Trego: Okay. i SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 17 Bill Moody: Getting to the hangar and that is it. And I Martin Ditmore: Then there is no point in talking with will not support the facility any more than absolutely Ted,he is doing what they told him to do. necessary to conduct our business in the future. Now, it is just that simple. Chuck McLean: They appoint this Board, and we are on our way down to see the Mayor now. Charles Trego: That's a matter of your decision. It is not a matter of what we are trying to do here. We do not Martin Ditmore: Your talking to the wrong people. seem to have a whole lot of choice when it comes down to the point that we seem to be licensed under certain laws Jun Boykin: Well we are just advisors, who do we here. And if the City has established their code above and advise? beyond what ever else we have to adhere to, and they Charles Trego: We can take it to(unclear words). want our Airport Manager to follow certain procedure, as a member of the Board, I have to support that because Martin Ditmore: You need to go and talk to them,that is until the City Council decides to do differently, that's the what I am trying to tell you. He is doing what they have way it runs. told him to do. Now there is no point in beating him up. Bill Moody: That's the reason I mentioned Council,staff, Chuck McLean: We have other people who might want and the Board. to say something. Are you going to be able to stay? Jim Boykin: Are you guys suppose to meet the Mayor at Charles Trego: Yea,I can stay. 1:30 you are going to be late. Chuck McLean: I know we won't have a quorum. Bill Moody: They are running people off, and there are two more operators that I know of that are going to start Charles Trego: Okay, because that was what I was doing the same thing. They will not support this facility. wondering about. I have things I need to do, but, what is this thing you and... Jim Boykin: As a member of the Board that's suppose to Chuck McLean: Oh,we're going down to see the Mayor promote aviation here, I just can't handle it. There is on this same subject. something wrong with the attitude, maybe everybody on this dang field is crazy. Charles Trego: Oh,okay. Good luck. Bill Madden: Well it is a culture shock. This field was Bill Madden: The problem is, he doesn't have the operated like a grass air strip ever since it was built. And authority to back off on the gates,with federal FARs. all of the sudden we have a Manager that the City gave him his marching orders,and he is trying to follow them. Jim Boykin: I understand that. What I am doing is, I'm trying to illuminate the total problem. This thing is Jim Boykin: I understand that. ridiculous, and it is going right into a big daggone fireball, and unless we stop, we are going to drive Charles Trego: We are trying to help guide him, I mean everybody off of this field, and we are going to be in other facets and ways that we can. I don't necessarily partially responsible, except for five or six rich people think that berating the man publicly is going to be the who have airplanes down here,who do what they want to best way. anyway. And all of the little guys are going to be gone, Jim Boykin: If I have been recognized as berating him and I don't know who's fault it is. I'm just trying to say that something has to be done. publicly I apologize to him right now. I was only trying to reflect what I had been told. Ted Morris: You stated very clearly that it was my fault. Charles Trego: I think that was quite clear on the first set. Charles Trego: You did do that. Martin Ditmore: You are talking to the wrong guy. Jim Boykin: I didn't mean that. Jim Boykin: Who should I be talking to? Ted Morris: And that is exactly what everybody else is Martin Ditmore: It sounds like Ericson and the City saying too. Manager. Jim Boykin: All right,I stated it,I apologize to you for it, Jim Boykin: But I don't deal with them. and I'm sure you've got it on that tape. SEPTEMBER 4, 1997 AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD MEETING Page 18 Chuck McLean: Jim, I admire you for representing the Board... Jim Boykin: I'm trying to represent the little guys. (Unclear words, several people talking while leaving the room.) Susan Pfeiffer: May I get a motion to adjourn this meeting? Charles Trego: I make the motion. Gene Kennon: And I will second it. Meeting adjourned at 1:15 PM. AIRPORT MANAGER'S REPORT FOR AIRPORT ADVISORY BOARD - Sept. 4, 1997 TEXT: YOUR NOTES: AIP Project#12: "Taxiway C"Project. - FAA will fund Taxiway, Fencing and AWOS as 1 project. - All State supplemental grant offers accepted by City Council. (TWY C, AWOS, TWY B, & Fencing/gates). - Bids opened Aug. 26. C.S. McCrossan apparent winner. Still finalizing their DBE plan status. Requires FAA concurrence as well. - On Sept. 15 City Council meeting agenda: Authorize acceptance of federal grant, and granting the contract, contingent upon FAA concurrence. Airport Policy progress&time/phase: - Lots to talk about when we have more time: -- Role of AAB. -- Ordinance rather than resolution. -- Fees & Charges, lease boilerplate, etc. as accompanying resolution. Auto Sunshades: Contract awarded Sept. 2 City Council meeting to Warren Construction of Las Cruces. Canopy contract for $48,615 with $2,430.75 in change orders authorized. With money left over we will rehabilitate the pavement. Aviation Day: This weekend. Don't miss it. Bright View Land Company development: Nothing to report. Electricity: All pole plans received. FAA Form 7460-1s submitted for close in and power transmission line coming down from the north. Closest approach to airport is a 75' pole 5,191' from the approach end of RWY 4. Fuel Storage/refueling. John Darden from WMFA may come to this meeting to discuss their refueler. Hangar Parcel Lease requests: - On Sept. 15 City Council agenda: -- Ed Mimoso for parcel 21. -- Mel Renneckar for parcel 19. - Mr. Wallace has not yet responded to a request for what he intends with Parcel 17. In the interim, I've informed him he doesn't have to pay this year's rent(now due) if he intends to let the lease go. If no response soon, I will propose the City Council terminate the lease. Master Plan. Nothing new to report. Pavement Maintenance. City Council accepted State Aviation Division grant for$63,000 in matching funds for pavement maintenance. Please see attached diagram for what we plan to do with the $126,000 now available. Personnel. Part time maintenance worker position is approved - should get the list of finalists from Human Resources this week or next. Water Tower painting project. Complete.